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Steve.Joe

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What ideas are you suggesting for a prussia in a MP (assuming that prussia will own most of skandinavia).

I want to tak the following idea groups first:
1) Innovative
2) Defensive
3) Quantity
4) Economic
5) Quality

Economic seems to be great in combination with quantity, fewer MP and costs for buildings, and policy with +33% land force limit.

I am considering maritime or naval for later game, to be able to compete on a global basis.

What do you suggest?
 

IIWW

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Who are the other players? It's quite vital if You can easily dominate the HRE or not.
 

bex I

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sounds good, the policies of innovative+eco+quality are very good - together with quality.

i wouldnt suggest defensive first, i think it only has 2(and a half) good ideas.

this are the reasons why i would pick quality as a first military idea.

forced march is absolutly necessary in multiplayer, so offensive is a must imo. quantity is nice to have, but its more effective to use the military points for tech and other ideas and especially spamming mp builduings.

so as prussia i would go this way(depends on the circumstances of course, like ruler and neighbours)

1) innovative
2) quality/offensive
3) quality/offensive
4) eco
5) quantity
6) defensive
7) trade/maritim/religious
8)trade/maritim/religious
 

MeatPirate

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1) Innovative

The AI takes this but I think it's not very necessary. You shouldn't have a problem staying at 100 AT with NI + Def + the mass conquest you've planned. Protestant DotF gives you the monthly -WE.

2) Defensive
3) Quantity
5) Quality

Good.

4) Economic
Economic seems to be great in combination with quantity, fewer MP and costs for buildings, and policy with +33% land force limit.

It's not bad, but I'm not crazy about it in general. You will need to take some non-MIL idea sets, but taking Religious/Humanism early will pay off better while you're growing. You can ditch Religious after DIP 22 and all Ortho stuff is converted, then maybe fill out Eco.

I am considering maritime or naval for later game, to be able to compete on a global basis.

What do you suggest?

Maybe, but you'll have to see how things shake out. Who are your other player nations? Which ones survive? Facing a huge British Empire, for example, any sort of navy is pointless so I wouldn't bother. If it gives you the edge over a similar naval forcelimit player then it's not a terrible idea.
 

Pepsi_max

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Depends a lot on who is being played. Is Bohemia being played ? Hansa ? Poland ?

Usually, i'd advice you to (if you have proper DLC) to put focus on military the whole game. You'll never have too few administrative points.

At start you don't have that much manpower and forcelimit, so you need that first to be able to compete against the other HRE minors.

If you plan on going scandinavia early, be careful about being "locked" like some naval country cutting the 2 parts, invading one making you and making you lose that part.


Quantity. You need that to have more MP. More mp means going from 1300-1400 a year to 2100 with only 2 ideas, which is huge. It also improves your military limit later.
I'd take that on first or second idea.
As other said, the prussian National ideas scale very well with quality and defensive. Navy is petty hard if you don't own a lot of ports, etc...you'll likely need your diplo points early to diplo/annex, etc...
 
U

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Prussians roflstomp their enemies by virtue of their ideas, sometimes with a 1:2 disadvantage. Therefore, you don't need defensive because you want to handle defense like the dialog says "but attack is the best form of defense."

Probably offensive in lieu of defensive. OP Prussia can run around killing everything anywhere with Offensive and forced march.

Economic is good; however, with Prussia, you *can*, if you choose, take all of the Balkan Coastline as well as everything from Russia around Novgorod and the White Sea. This means you can redirect trade coming in all the way from Asia into the Balkans. Likewise, if you are able to deal with the Emperor or simply become the Emperor yourself, taking Lubeck means never having to worry about money if you pick up trade ideas.

The value in this is that you will need your admin points for coring, and, obviously, your military points are precious if you're going to stay maxed in tech and take multiple military idea groups. Therefore, formulating your strategy around conquests that allow you to turn your diplo points into more money using trade ideas may give you a more balanced approach to stomping all of Europe and making the other players regret ever allowing anyone to play Prussia in the first place.



So, especially in 1.8, the kind of numbers you can get with trade seems to be well above what it was in 1.7, I think in part due to having so many more provinces.

So, I would consider trade ideas if you can take over all the trade power leading to the Balkans and later Lubeck.

You might also consider either humanism or religious. Religious' deus vult which saves you a lot of diplo points when dealing with Catholics, Orthodox and so forth (switching to reformed gives you the largest target list going this route). I personally like humanism when I know I'm going to have a country that can be a big bad blob without it being France, like Prussia. Humanism basically shuts unrest down.

Good luck - make them suffer for their lack of vision.
 
U

Ultrix Prime

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you'll likely need your diplo points early to diplo/annex, etc...

Not so much in 1.8. Given that you get -3 reputation from diplo-annexing 1 vassal for 10 years and this is part of the calculation for monthly pay down on the diplo-annex, it is basically impossible to rapidly diplo-annex multiple vassals in a short period of time and thus run low on diplo MPs. In 1.7, this was the case, but the new mechanics mean that you would have to take both diplomatic and influence for the diplo rep buffs in order just to do *2* diplo annex's in a 10 year period.

Thus, the case where you could run out of diplo is when you've created a very big and very expensive vassal for diplo annexing. This isn't likely to happen in the early game. Thus, your diplo points for a country like Prussia are particularly disposable because having a big navy to dominate the Balkans will give you *some* income, but to make it a lot of income requires securing the trade lines and building up structures such that the value going in plus the local value plus the trade power gives you a very large income. Conquest is the easier way of achieving this.

Of course, that also means making other players angry :)

go get em!
 

FreeSoc

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Not so much in 1.8. Given that you get -3 reputation from diplo-annexing 1 vassal for 10 years and this is part of the calculation for monthly pay down on the diplo-annex, it is basically impossible to rapidly diplo-annex multiple vassals in a short period of time and thus run low on diplo MPs. In 1.7, this was the case, but the new mechanics mean that you would have to take both diplomatic and influence for the diplo rep buffs in order just to do *2* diplo annex's in a 10 year period.

Thus, the case where you could run out of diplo is when you've created a very big and very expensive vassal for diplo annexing. This isn't likely to happen in the early game. Thus, your diplo points for a country like Prussia are particularly disposable because having a big navy to dominate the Balkans will give you *some* income, but to make it a lot of income requires securing the trade lines and building up structures such that the value going in plus the local value plus the trade power gives you a very large income. Conquest is the easier way of achieving this.

Of course, that also means making other players angry :)

go get em!

That, and diploannexing is not something you'd really want to be doing in the HRE anyway, because everyone gets opinion penalties if you diploannex HRE members. You'd generally be better off just militarily annexing OPMs and chipping away at larger HRE states/keeping them as vassals.
 

IIWW

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Prussians roflstomp their enemies by virtue of their ideas, sometimes with a 1:2 disadvantage. Therefore, you don't need defensive because you want to handle defense like the dialog says "but attack is the best form of defense."

Probably offensive in lieu of defensive. OP Prussia can run around killing everything anywhere with Offensive and forced march.
Defensive IG give Prussia 100 land tradition all the time (together with war college and innovative). Also, the +10% morale are nice.
 

Tzeentch_

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Prussians roflstomp their enemies by virtue of their ideas, sometimes with a 1:2 disadvantage. Therefore, you don't need defensive because you want to handle defense like the dialog says "but attack is the best form of defense."

Probably offensive in lieu of defensive. OP Prussia can run around killing everything anywhere with Offensive and forced march.

Economic is good; however, with Prussia, you *can*, if you choose, take all of the Balkan Coastline as well as everything from Russia around Novgorod and the White Sea. This means you can redirect trade coming in all the way from Asia into the Balkans. Likewise, if you are able to deal with the Emperor or simply become the Emperor yourself, taking Lubeck means never having to worry about money if you pick up trade ideas.

The value in this is that you will need your admin points for coring, and, obviously, your military points are precious if you're going to stay maxed in tech and take multiple military idea groups. Therefore, formulating your strategy around conquests that allow you to turn your diplo points into more money using trade ideas may give you a more balanced approach to stomping all of Europe and making the other players regret ever allowing anyone to play Prussia in the first place.



So, especially in 1.8, the kind of numbers you can get with trade seems to be well above what it was in 1.7, I think in part due to having so many more provinces.

So, I would consider trade ideas if you can take over all the trade power leading to the Balkans and later Lubeck.

You might also consider either humanism or religious. Religious' deus vult which saves you a lot of diplo points when dealing with Catholics, Orthodox and so forth (switching to reformed gives you the largest target list going this route). I personally like humanism when I know I'm going to have a country that can be a big bad blob without it being France, like Prussia. Humanism basically shuts unrest down.

Good luck - make them suffer for their lack of vision.

Good advice for singleplayer, awful advice for multiplayer. I absolutely guarantee you that you'll get very little trade from Lubeck or the Baltic if there's even a semi competent Burgundy, Hansa, Denmark, Sweden or England. Humanism, Religious and Trade are so absolutely worthless in multiplayer for Prussia that you'll be at a huge disadvantage if you take any of those. You don't die to rebels or care much about converting X province a few months earlier when you could be partitioned by your neighbours after a single battle lost. Also, assuming he can take anything from anyone in a multiplayer environment is extremely naive.

Military ideas, more military ideas, and military policies. That's all there is to surviving and prospering in multiplayer as a European. Before AoW my "ideal ideas" were Offensive, Innovative, Defensive and Quality in that order, but now due to the new policies with opposite idea groups I believe Offensive, Innovative, Defensive, Economic/Quality is the way to go for the +5% Discipline and +20% infantry combat ability policies. Also go Reformed religion for the +15% morale Führer ability, that when combined with your +20% NI, +15% Defensive idea, +5% DotF and constantly high AT and prestige means you'll have a ridiculous morale advantage over many other players.

Never take an administrative idea group first as a western minor, in my opinion, as you'll need those points for coring the OPM's in the HRE once you're too far over your diplo limit. And with the Imperial integrity there is absolutely no way you cannot fill out a military idea group taken first and still stay up to date with military tech even with a few bad rulers. It's even common to take multiple military idea groups one after a another, you just need to plan for the important techs (tactics, morale, new units) and save accordingly so you're not caught -1 morale down to your neighbour when he attacks you. Also remember to wait for the ahead of time modifier before you take a new tech, just sit on a mil tech until you're about to go to war or are attacked, then you can take the next level.

Getting FM before your neighbours is such a huge advantage in multiplayer as humans are less coordinated than the AI, especially if you're not using voice coms. It's why I love to take Offensive as my first idea group. It's useful in larger player wars where you need to reinforce an ally stack quickly or risk losing a battle and perhaps even the war due to being 3 days late. Defensive is also a must for maintaining 100% AT and further increasing your morale advantage. Never take Quality early, especially as a land nation, it's simply not worth it.

Diplo annex everything you can, you never need to worry about leveling up your diplomatic tech and none of the diplo idea groups are worth it for you. I wouldn't suggest taking Naval or Maritime, while you think it'll help to keep you competitive at sea that's simply not the case. You can build over twice your naval force limit and yet the moment England moves their trade fleet into the baltic you're going to lose everything no matter what ideas you have taken. Play to your strengths, leave the naval game to England, Venice and whoever else.

Now I noticed the HRE is relatively empty in your game so I highly suggest that you make a pact with Austria and split the HRE in half, he does the leg work early game and you carry him late game. A nice opener for getting ahead early is to day 1 dow the Teutonic Order (Neumark core) and vassalise them in one war, so get an ally to take Danzig and Chelmo then peace out, then you vassalise and the provinces are sold back to the AI vassal. Or just split it with Poland. Be warned however you will be coalitioned by some OPM's so this is where an Austria/Poland/Burgundy ally is useful.

Just my 2 cents as I have lots of experience playing Brandenburg in multiple multiplayer games, and currently involved in one as Brandenburg at the moment.

Here's my Germany in patch 1.4 taking on a 3v7 player war. It was a hell of a war, we preemptively invaded France as to catch the other nations off guard. We blitzkrieged into France wiping as many stacks as possible, and then when the Russians and Polish reached Berlin we regrouped and switched fronts and pushed them back (this is where forced march is absolutely essential), and so on for many years. Don't forget to use scorched earth too, especially if defending, as battles are won by discipline, pips and morale, but wars are won with manpower. We eventually achieved a 60% WS lead before running out of manpower, we were winning the battles but would definitely lose the war if it raged on for another decade, and thus stab hitted for peace. A game with a big Prussia, in my opinion, is much more interesting as they're a great counter to the usual French and Ottoman dominance we see in most MP games, unfortunately they're often killed early on when they're defenceless and vulnerable.

Just survive the early game and have fun wrecking everyone late game.
 
Last edited:

1alexey

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You will play MP game without Offensive? Madness.
You need to boost your manpower mostly, so going for both Defensive and Innovative is rather pointless.
The only useful thing in Defensive for you, is morale bonus. But, Morale is easy to obtain by going Calvinist and picking Religious as it has morale boosting policies.
Picking Economy is not advisable. It is rather poor, and your are vulnerable on sea, I`d suggest picking Maritime and/or Trade if you want cash.
I`d say pick Quantity first, it is easily one of the best MP idea groups.
Then either go for Religious or Offensive, and stack those military ideas. Aristocracy could be a good choice as well.

IMO, first and foremost, you need to pick what is your strategy. Do you try to get the strongest army per unit, or do you try to get more even on numbers being more or less tied in quality. Then go for appropriate ideas.
Good advice for singleplayer, awful advice for multiplayer. I absolutely guarantee you that you'll get very little trade from Lubeck or the Baltic if there's even a semi competent Burgundy, Hansa, Denmark, Sweden or England.

I wouldn't suggest taking Naval or Maritime, while you think it'll help to keep you competitive at sea that's simply not the case. You can build over twice your naval force limit and yet the moment England moves their trade fleet into the baltic you're going to lose everything no matter what ideas you have taken. Play to your strengths, leave the naval game to England, Venice and whoever else.
You don`t need a trade fleet in Baltic, as a Baltic state, all you need is a stack of Galleys as large as your can, and kindly ask the usual trade nations to GTFO from your trade centers. Keeping a military fleet strong enough to prevent your galleys from sniping their trade fleet, will seriously drain their cash, not to mention you can ally trade power that is not interested in Lubeck trade, but is interested in taking attention of Brits elsewhere, if your fleet is not enough.

In many cases, well build up trade buildings lines, a fleet of galleys and some sort of idea to boost your fleet/trade tends to be enough to make the usual trade nations not interested in your trade.
 
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Innovative
Quality (+20% Inf Combat Policy)
Economic (+5% Discipline Policy)

at that point you have 20% morale, 17.5% discipline and 40% inf combat and you can take any idea you might want and not really care.
 

Nunn45

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To echo what a few have said, Offensive is an absolute must for any Military nation (and pretty much everyone who intends to fight wars) that wants to be competitive, anyone with force march is going to have a huge advantage of someone who doesn't.
You shouldnt need to worry as much about getting quantity or finding ways to stack FL, Prussia has always been more about quality then quantity and you get a FL bonus from offensive anyways, if later game you got free slots then go ahead and stack the extra military ideas on.
 

Steve.Joe

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I reconsidered. I read all your advices, it was very helpful. I have taken defensive already, but I have reconsidered and I will take offensive next. I'll stick to economy, due to the policies ... and quality & quantity :rolleyes:


tzeench mentioned to go reformed instead protestant. Is thi really a viable option? And could I go protestant first, take advantage of idea bonus and switch late game to reformed?
 

CaptainChiatrol

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Prussians roflstomp their enemies by virtue of their ideas, sometimes with a 1:2 disadvantage. Therefore, you don't need defensive because you want to handle defense like the dialog says "but attack is the best form of defense."

Prussia with innovative + defensive is how they get a permanent 100% army tradition without any policies and get the best generals so i disagree. Also the benefits in defensive are great for offensive with maneuver so you can attack from more locations, moral, resistance to attrition, and the defensive bonuses give you extra time to wipe them before they siege something of yours.

Permanent 100% tradition that can only go down by events is amazing because you can recruit a general whenever you want and not worry about tradition. Without defensive you will stabilize at 80% instead which isn't as amazing.