Ideas about an Espionage System

[Khevor]

I'm not sure if this is where I should post this, but I was told to post it here so everyone could review it. Just a note, I've only put in about 60-65 hours into the game but I thought about espionage integration.

I wrote it all down before so I'll paste it here:

"I don't think espionage should be something like plop down a building and suddenly you have a contingent of spies that are merely figures of your race in a cloak and hood. Suspension of that much disbelief is silly. To say that infiltration would be exceedingly difficult would be an understatement... so save that option for late game when the galaxy is more of a melting pot of major and minor races. It would be easier to implement a type of informant system. There are always people in a given government that are dissatisfied with the status quo. It shouldn't be too difficult to gain informants within the borders of a given empire. Those informants could give you basic information like star charts or slightly more information such as current location of a fleet. You could contact these informants via a button on the diplomacy screen (basically, talk to the informant instead of the ruler).

However, for more interesting things, that would require being able to "roll" one of the four main leader types to become sympathizers to your empire. Propaganda, misinformation, etc., would be fed to these leaders by the informants (the greater number of informants you have in a given empire, the higher the chances of success in rolling a leader). The chances of rolling a governor would have to be ridiculously high. They are the most loyal of all the leaders and the least likely to be turncoats - although not impossible. Roll a governor and a world is yours... or, if you couldn't gain him as a sympathizer, then founds his own empire. Roll a scientist and you gain access to technology (similar to how a science vessel gains information via scanning debris). Gain an advance toward a tech you don't have, or gain a small amount of physics, biology, or engineering points. Best case scenario, get an entire technology. Roll an Admiral, and high gains could be the destruction of an entire fleet or the destruction of a frontier outpost. Roll a General, and best case scenario would be a coup d'etat on a planet removing the governor and installing the General as the new Governor. High chance of it becoming yours or founding a new empire.

Espionage shouldn't be about plopping down a new building. Tile real estate is already at a premium. Besides, espionage is as much part of the government of a given society as having a military arm. There's no need for a new building. New leader traits, yes. Also, contacting informants would be just like using that screen for communication without video used in some anomaly quests. After all, secrecy is absolutely necessary if you expect anything espionage effort to be successful. If an informant is willing to be seen via video, they're not worth anything as an informant.

I know this doesn't offer much, but it seems to me that this type of espionage system could be easily implemented into the game without introducing new tabs, new buildings, or new leaders. Counter-espionage and counter terrorism is already part of the government (or should be the moment you come into contact with another alien species) regardless of the system of government in place, so the only thing the game would require would be a single method for gaining and using informants. Everything else is behind-the-scenes number crunching."

Sorry if it's not overly informative. It's just an idea, after all.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

In my mind an obvious mechanic for espionage would be listening posts- they feature in the Precursor event chains a few times, it'd make sense to integrate the gameplay and story in that regard. Something where you can build a station along a border and it'd somehow feed you information through intercepted communications.

 

[Diezy]

It could work, especially with the new ethic/faction system! Certain foreign dissident factions could work for you, and you could support them to lots of trouble on your behalf!

The neighboring warmonger can end up with a lot of dissent if their Pacifist faction ends up too strong, for one example. If you have another empire's unhappy Materialist faction's sympathy, it could count as a free (one-way) Research Agreement as they inform you on all their research.

Xenophobic supremacy groups wouldn't directly join you or become your vassal if successful, but even they could end up starting many rebellions against their government, and would have best chances to overthrow, you can just secretly fund them to have a huge fleet.

And all kinds of other cheeky tactics ^_^ Indeed the only way to counter that would be to keep all your factions weak/happy/loyal enough not to be swayed against you.

 

[Khevor]

It could work, especially with the new ethic/faction system! Certain foreign dissident factions could work for you, and you could support them to lots of trouble on your behalf!

The neighboring warmonger can end up with a lot of dissent if their Pacifist faction ends up too strong, for one example. If you have another empire's unhappy Materialist faction's sympathy, it could count as a free (one-way) Research Agreement as they inform you on all their research.

Xenophobic supremacy groups wouldn't directly join you or become your vassal if successful, but even they could end up starting many rebellions against their government, and would have best chances to overthrow, you can just secretly fund them to have a huge fleet.

And all kinds of other cheeky tactics ^_^ Indeed the only way to counter that would be to keep all your factions weak/happy/loyal enough not to be swayed against you.

I just finished watching all of Deep Space Nine, which is what helped spawn the ideas I presented, and what you just described goes right hand-in-hand with that.

 

[Kryndude]

I like that idea.

Also how about a spy production system? Other than corrupting individuals of a target empire, you can directly send your own agents disguised as their citizens. The recruit time and cost increases the far away ethos/species type is. Once you produce these agents you have to assign them to infiltrate a planet/fleet/army/imperial government itself/etc. Among many functions this feature may have, a successfully infiltrated spy would also increase the chance of a "roll."

 

[LastLeviathan]

One aspect I wish was possible was that planets could be contested. By that I mean if there's a civil war going on, a planet might go back and forth but not switch hands. An empire might secretly send trainers or weapons to one side while they fight it out. Currently there's no way to make a battle for a planet interesting in that way. An invasion happens or rebels spawn and then it's over, instead of a prolonged conflict over the planet where one side of the fight might have control of half or a quarter of the planet. More depth would also add more possibility of espionage for planets. Granted, I understand they want to focus more on space, so I'll leave it at that.

I like the ideas you have regarding Espionage being about interior politics rather than some abstract number of "spies". If only interactions between the IG characters were slightly more like CK2.

 

[Fade2Gray]

Sounds like something that could give a xenophobic mono-species an edge. How do you reach the leaders of such a species? Not necessary a bad thing, as playing as a purifier faction is rather, eh, challenging? Would be an interesting incentive to keep your worlds "free" of other species. Maybe add bonuses for infiltrating pops of similar ethics and the like?

 

[Khevor]

I figure that the best way to gain informants would be either to wait for one to contact you (quest line) or (if you're the same sub-species, i.e. plantoid to plantoid or humanoid to humanoid) send a surgically altered "operative" (again, quest line) to gain informants. For the latter, I say same sub-species because it would be nigh on impossible to surgically alter a fungoid to pass as a humanoid or a plantoid to pass as a molluscoid. Of course, there *could* be a third option if one more diplomatic option would come available: goods trade between empires. With tradeships passing between any given empire (even xenophobic ones if the need is high enough), the ability to gain information/informants/send operatives would become a great deal easier. Unfortunately, that mechanic is missing so making money off your neighbours is a different discussion.

 

[Arkangilos]

I think it should be more about pay offs. You funnel money into groups that you want to fund (so you can fund the militarist factions, for example). In return they will do certain things for you, like provide information every once and a while, conduct sabotage. Basically you have agents working with them to give them more influence and strength in their empire, and at the same time they will cause havoc and hit high value targets that you might nudge them towards.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

(if you're the same sub-species, i.e. plantoid to plantoid or humanoid to humanoid) send a surgically altered "operative" (again, quest line) to gain informants. For the latter, I say same sub-species because it would be nigh on impossible to surgically alter a fungoid to pass as a humanoid or a plantoid to pass as a molluscoid.

The Infiltration option for dealing with pre-FTL cultures disagrees with you. The technology required to mimic radically different species for the purposes of infiltration and subterfuge clearly exists in-universe.

 

[Khevor]

Yeah, I know which is partly why I added this part. LOL.

 

[laptor]

I do not think espionage could be an enrichment to the game. In any case it sounds boring and more like a "I am forced to do that"-mechanic

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I do not think espionage could be an enrichment to the game. In any case it sounds boring and more like a "I am forced to do that"-mechanic

You're kidding, right?

Espionage is a mainstay for 4X games.

 

[Khevor]

I do not think espionage could be an enrichment to the game. In any case it sounds boring and more like a "I am forced to do that"-mechanic

There is nothing in the outline that would indicate that this mechanic would force anyone to use it. That aside, espionage is the cornerstone of intelligence gathering both in a game and in life (if it weren't, a site like Wikileaks wouldn't exist).

 

[Kozer]

It should be easier to spy on a Federation and a species that has an open migration policy.
It should be harder to spy on those Xenophobic species and extremely religious ones.

One thing cannot work for all the types of races we can have.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I would also like to see espionage against non-sovereign targets, i.e factions and primitives (infiltrators use a primitive planet for something other than conquest).

I agree with Kozer that more liberal societies should suffer more subterfuge, and be encouraged to create an extensive spy network like the CIA while a totalitarian empire can just secret-police it. Faction leaders should be added to the game as tough targets that if killed will greatly reduce a faction's influence.

Alongside regular military espionage it would be fun to also have extensive civilian espionage, with occasional full-blown manhunts. Espionage should be in deep enough to make people enjoy it as a game itself, rather than just a tool for military expansion (would give powerful peaceful nations something to do)

 

[Peko?]

You're kidding, right?

Espionage is a mainstay for 4X games.

But to be fair it's done horribly in most of them. I can't think of one 4X where espionage didn't turn into a chore except the ones where it could just be ignored completely.