Idealistic Foundation civic needs a buff

[LeonOfOddecca]

Currently the Idealistic Foundation civic gives a +5 bonus to happiness. However, given that happiness no longer affects productivity directly, this bonus is extremely underwhelming. For comparison, consider the civics Shared Burdens and Police State. Both of these civics give +5 stability as well as an additional positive effect. As far as I can tell, in 2.2 +5 to stability is better than +5 to happiness. So why would anyone take Idealistic Foundations except for roleplay purposes?

 

[Peter34]

Yes, it makes no sense. It should probably be imcreased to +10%. Or even +15% if Happiness is the only effect that that Civic gives.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Currently the Idealistic Foundation civic gives a +5 bonus to happiness. However, given that happiness no longer affects productivity directly, this bonus is extremely underwhelming. For comparison, consider the civics Shared Burdens and Police State. Both of these civics give +5 stability as well as an additional positive effect. As far as I can tell, in 2.2 +5 to stability is better than +5 to happiness. So why would anyone take Idealistic Foundations except for roleplay purposes?

Because they don't have the option of picking Police State and want a production bonus from all pops.

Edit: removed weak argument.

Idealistic Foundation requires egalitarian or fanatic egalitarian.
Police State requires NOT being fanatic egalitarian.

As such, the only ethics combination where the two compete is for societies that are egalitarian. For all other ethics only one of the two is available, meaning that they do not compete for the player's choice of civics.

It follows that Idealistic Foundation has a role, despite Police State being strictly better in the one case where they do compete.

So while I agree with you that Idealistic Foundation is currently a weak civic to pick as +5 happiness isn't that much and it might be a more interesting pick were it stronger, the bonuses from Police State are irrelevant as to whether Idealistic Foundation should change as they don't compete in the general case.

 

[LeonOfOddecca]

Because they don't have the option of picking Police State and want a production bonus from all pops.

Edit: removed weak argument.

Idealistic Foundation requires egalitarian or fanatic egalitarian.
Police State requires NOT being fanatic egalitarian.

As such, the only ethics combination where the two compete is for societies that are egalitarian. For all other ethics only one of the two is available, meaning that they do not compete for the player's choice of civics.

It follows that Idealistic Foundation has a role, despite Police State being strictly better in the one case where they do compete.

So while I agree with you that Idealistic Foundation is currently a weak civic to pick as +5 happiness isn't that much and it might be a more interesting pick were it stronger, the bonuses from Police State are irrelevant as to whether Idealistic Foundation should change as they don't compete in the general case.

But Shared Burdens is also strictly better than Idealistic Foundation. It's true that you can only pick Shared Burdens when you're a Fanatic Egalitarian, so if you want to be a normal egalitarian you have the option to pick Idealistic Foundation, but not Shared Burdens. However, that's a very niche situation for a very weak bonus.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

But Shared Burdens is also strictly better than Idealistic Foundation. It's true that you can only pick Shared Burdens when you're a Fanatic Egalitarian, so if you want to be a normal egalitarian you have the option to pick Idealistic Foundation, but not Shared Burdens. However, that's a very niche situation for a very weak bonus.

Shared Burdens isn't available to xenophobic fanatic egalitarians, nor to materialist fanatic egalitarians who are a technocracy. More generally, materialist fanatic egalitarians will usually prefer academic privilege living standards making Shared Burdens a bad pick.

So that's another couple of niche exceptions.

Either way, if you choose to play fanatic egalitarian in the first place, it is probably in order to get Shared Burdens since it is exclusive to that ethic. (And nothing prevents you from running both SB and IF as fanatic egalitarian if you want to boost productivity to the max, though you might well prefer other civics).

Again, I would not mind seeing Idealistisk Foundation buffed, but I don't see the necessity as while definitely one of the weaker civics, it is situationally useful. In addition it provides roleplaying potential for those wanting to play idealists for idealistic reasons rather than power.

 

[mammonmachine]

It might be thematically appropriate for it to give a governing ethics attraction boost as well.

 

[strangebloke]

In general terms, a buff has more potential to break the game than a nerf.

But yeah, its pretty niche. Ethics attraction is one idea, another would be +10% faction happiness. So it boosts your influence gain as well and gives you a net 15% happiness or so.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

It might be thematically appropriate for it to give a governing ethics attraction boost as well.

Very appropriate indeed. Good idea.

 

[LeonOfOddecca]

It might be thematically appropriate for it to give a governing ethics attraction boost as well.

Agreed. I've been considering making a mod to tweak ethics and civics, and that was one idea I had.