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unmerged(69928)

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Oh, they certainly do make good use of their superior speed-- in their flanking abilities in battle. Bear in mind that even the smallest province is a big place in human (and equine) terms. Horses don't generally oblige their masters by galloping hundreds of miles. I am extremely happy with the end of superfast cavalry. If nothing else, it means I A) don't have to micro-manage seperate stacks of cavalry and infantry, and B) battles make a lot more sense, with no ring-wraith units charging over the caucasus to surprise retreating Hordelings in Astrakhan. I can still get the jump on someone, but then only if I have a good general. Normal Speed Cav may be my favorite change of all.

I do understand this, and am warming to it. Though I abused the heck out of it, zipping across the country was kind of gamey. You could run that 100 miles in the real world with a 120 pound rider and no gear, but would not be in any shape to fight once arriving there. A wagon would run 20-30 miles, but would need rest, clean water. Maybe have to change horses too. Definitely not crossing Europe in 5 days.

I also like the idea of things happening within a province, as opposed to all over the map. It becomes more a strategic battle scenario as opposed to a real time battle game.

I won't be playing for a bit yet, so I'm trying to get a feel for what's what so I don't get spanked too badly when I can finally fire it up over the weekend... ;)

T
 

Asehujiko

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In the demo i build stacks of 6k cavalry and 6k infantry and keep them doubled up at my border. When i start a war, i wait for the AI to walk into one of my border provinces with it's main army, then swarm it with the rest of the cavalry and let the infantry encircle it. The giant defensive bonus and the fact that i use my general/king there tends to secure victory against a much larger army, after which i clear any straggles with 6 or 12k cav stacks and infantry spreads out in 3k half size stacks for sieges, after which my cavalry retreats and gets back on rebel duty elsewhere.
 

ForzaA

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Used to be primarily split inf (10k) and cav (12k) type of player, with some mixed armies thrown in for areas in which I couldn't "afford", for one reason or another, to have both..
But since cavalry lost it's speed advantage, I've been experimenting with various setups of mixed stacks.. For now settled on 4cav-6inf; seldomly get to mid- or lategame, so I haven't really developed a prefence for those.. The few times I do get there, I've mostly up-scaled my armies by adding 4art-1inf (for some reason, I like multiples of 5k as standard size)
 

Trin Tragula

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I've actually started to throw some artillery into my stacks now that they don't reduce speed anymore (at least I don't think they do). Helps greatly with seiges and I'm also thinking it might affect the new mythical tactics value that rewards you for balanced force compositions (or atleast I had a lot of more losses before i started to throw in some artillery but I can't be sure the difference was due to this as the influence of "tactics" isn't shown anywhere).

I suppose the tactics boni are in the game files but I haven't been poking around in those particular files yet (been getting very acquainted with the new history and decision files though).
 

GAGA Extrem

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I've actually started to throw some artillery into my stacks now that they don't reduce speed anymore (at least I don't think they do).
Unfortunatly, ART is still much slower than INF/CAV.

1.0 #MDEF_INFANTRY_SPEED_,
1.0 #_MDEF_CAVALRY_SPEED_,
0.75 #_MDEF_ARTILLERY_SPEED_,

Improving ART speed to 0.8 wouldn't have been bad, esp. with the CAV speed nerf.

I suppose the tactics boni are in the game files but I haven't been poking around in those particular files yet (been getting very acquainted with the new history and decision files though).
If you find anything, let me know. I looked through commons, but failed to find it. Maybe it's in the .exe
 

Trin Tragula

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Unfortunatly, ART is still much slower than INF/CAV.
[...]
Improving ART speed to 0.8 wouldn't have been bad, esp. with the CAV speed nerf.

Actually for the same reasons that cav and inf don't differ in march speed now I'd say artillery shouldn't either. There are loads of heavy stuff being moved around with armies anyway and an army entirely without artillery would be very unusual for most of the game period.


If you find anything, let me know. I looked through commons, but failed to find it. Maybe it's in the .exe

Was just a guess though but I will look around for it. I wish there was some way to see in the game what bonuses/maluses affected battles in regards to the new tactics values. Everything else is so very visible so it seems a bit strange to have this so hidden.
I did experience a big difference when I included the cannons, but I was at somewhat high tech too so it might just've been the new fire phase doing it's thing (unrelated but: isnt't tech a lot slower now? It's 1700 in my game and europe is around 30 in all techs, which is the suggested tech for 1650, this goes for all nations in europe).
 

unmerged(69928)

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Feb 25, 2007
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I made ART 0.8 along with my land tech tables for IN, and it worked quite well. I thought it was a nice balance, and made using ART just a little easier without upsetting the whole system at the time..

In that vein, perhaps a CAV speed of 1.2 would be a decent balance the other way? I think that may be one of the first changes I make, just to see how it plays out, after a good time using the system "as is" for a base line.

T
 

SharpFish

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Actually for the same reasons that cav and inf don't differ in march speed now I'd say artillery shouldn't either. There are loads of heavy stuff being moved around with armies anyway and an army entirely without artillery would be very unusual for most of the game period.

There are historical cases though where artillery gets left behind, or cut off from the main body, becuase they are bogged down in mud, can't cross a river, and the like.

I agree it's debatable; as you say, moving an art cart is not a great deal different than moving a supply cart.
 

GAGA Extrem

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In that vein, perhaps a CAV speed of 1.2 would be a decent balance the other way? I think that may be one of the first changes I make, just to see how it plays out, after a good time using the system "as is" for a base line.

T

The problem with speed 1.2 is that CAV-only armies will outrun retreating stacks again. Now take into account that (1) the terrain penatlies are more severe - giving the retreating units even less chance to win or even tie the next battle and (2) with the new combat system (morale defeat in the first 12 days = army destroyed), the first retreat of an army - even asap after 12 days - will mean unavoidable destruction.
With this I feat battles would become even more deceicive. And the AI, which usually doesn't play the "all CAV" strategy will perform even worse on the battlefield...

Maybe this was the very reason why they reduced CAV speed to 1.0.
 

sir q

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With the default HT ruleset, I try to make my armies roughly one-third cavalry. You always want more infantry in the army now - after some early experimentation with old-style all-cavalry armies, I realized that "tactics" is a subtle bonus that's making a huge difference in battles.

Most of my armies are about the same size, small enough to dodge attrition in the majority of my provinces. Usually this means no larger than 16,000 armies in the eras of longbows and condottas... France can get away with 24,000 because of infinite manpower.

As the country gets bigger, I keep a couple larger stacks, ~30,000, hopefully with artillery, in high-supply provinces (typically near my capital. you can put a lot of troops in Ile-de-France or Vienna.) They're for quickly breaking foreign armies, then splitting into a thousand tiny sieges. They'll suffer horrible attrition for a few months as they march to the front, then zero attrition during the fighting and once they start sieges.

This all assumes, of course, a stable country with some control over the wars it's in. During those periods of revolt risks and infamy in the 20s, it's more a matter of "the only army that's not decimated, waiting at home for more manpower." If morale is everything in this expansion, manpower is what morale is made out of ... nothing is less fun than a major war at 0 manpower.
 

GAGA Extrem

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With the default HT ruleset, I try to make my armies roughly one-third cavalry. You always want more infantry in the army now - after some early experimentation with old-style all-cavalry armies, I realized that "tactics" is a subtle bonus that's making a huge difference in battles.
Is there any way to get some numbers about tactics?
Because: When my CAV is fighting without terrain penalties, they usually chew up any force up to 2 times their size... As for me, I have yet to notice any effect of "tactics" in battle...:eek:o
...maybe it's time / LT related?

edit: Aha, found an enty @ land_tech.txt - tactics increases from 0.5 up to 4 during the gameframe. Still - whats the exact effect? Maybe a defensive dice roll bonus?
 
Last edited:

unmerged(69928)

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The problem with speed 1.2 is that CAV-only armies will outrun retreating stacks again. Now take into account that (1) the terrain penatlies are more severe - giving the retreating units even less chance to win or even tie the next battle and (2) with the new combat system (morale defeat in the first 12 days = army destroyed), the first retreat of an army - even asap after 12 days - will mean unavoidable destruction.
With this I feat battles would become even more deceicive. And the AI, which usually doesn't play the "all CAV" strategy will perform even worse on the battlefield...

Maybe this was the very reason why they reduced CAV speed to 1.0.

A few thoughts...

Most AI nations have better generals than you do, early game when CAV is most effective at least... At 1.2, a 2 pip maneuver general should arrive at or when you do. The speed difference of 0.2 is such a low value compared to the original 1.5, that it could actually become quite risky to rely on the tactic of jumping ahead. Gone are the days of the sure defensive position, except in small leaderless battles, which aren't supposed to be the norm now in this decisive army age. And heaven help you if they have a good maneuver general, you won't even be able to use the tactic at all, speed increase or not.

A good maneuver general would allow you the same flexibility with INF with the current system, so the tactic question is moot. Whoever has the most maneuverability is going to win the battle anyways. Is it a huge deal to have it won by an army of CAV or an army of BOTH...?

Even with the speed at 1.0, if I have that maneuver, what's to stop me from building an all CAV army and do it anyways??? I'm sure someone has tried this already. What was the result...? Does it change because you got there a day sooner...?

I do agree with you that the terrain bonuses are killers. I actually would like to see them lessened. I think they went a bit overboard here, and actually made the get ahead of the advancing army an even easier tactic to use.

As I've stated, Maneuver is King. With such heavy modifiers, position now accounts for a huge part of the outcome. Just because I arrived first doesn't mean I'm organized, familiar with the lay of the land or anything of the sort.

Just arriving troops should have to 'get' fortified to be that effective, which takes time. Also, many battles of the era were fought on 'fields' of battle, not in trenches or fortifications. Those kinds of things are located in the 'siege' part of the program. On the fields the first arrival has the advantage of a little rest and choosing to have the sun at his back or the slight elevation. Is that worth -4 or -5...? I wouldn't think so. A river, sure. A small knoll, hardly.

What I really miss is the ability to send CAV as a second, or bolstering army, where it's speed gave me some flexibility.

The 0.2 value is small, but is just enough to get help get CAV to that battle that's going badly. I like that "saved by the Cavalry" notion that's in every movie since they invented the western. Sure it's a cheesy premise, but from a tactical standpoint, sending a CAV force that can travel fast and effect the battle outcome vs. sending an army that won't and losing the initial battle is a sound strategy decision. Whether it was employed in history or not, which I can't imagine that it wasn't, is also moot, as this is alternate history.

Once ART and heavy fire INF roll along, they have alot of firepower to bring to bear even with the terrain modifiers. You aren't going to get out of it for free.

It's a sound battle doctrine to use. It's not 'gamey'. The conditions, units and program make it seem that way, but if you can send your CAV to chase down and kill the enemy, you do. If you can send them round the mountain or across the valley and meet them on a field of your choosing, you do. You don't simply let them run away.

Sorry for the wall. I haven't done one in awhile, and the fingers just kept going and going...

T
 

Cikomyr

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How about having a terrain speed modifier. Like mountains and jungles would be x3, road would do a x0.5, etc...

Artillery would have doubled speed/attrition penalty for those special terrains? Making them virtually crippling when you want to assault the Himmalaya?
 

unmerged(69928)

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Feb 25, 2007
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How about having a terrain speed modifier. Like mountains and jungles would be x3, road would do a x0.5, etc...

Artillery would have doubled speed/attrition penalty for those special terrains? Making them virtually crippling when you want to assault the Himmalaya?

Now see... There's that simple straight forward thinking again...

It does seem odd that we have terrain penalties for battle but not for movement... Would make for a nice addition, that.

T