Idea: Volunteers

[unmerged(95076)]

You're wrong

Most SS-divisions consisted of Germans or 'Volksdeutsche' (Germans living in other countries like Hungary or Romania).

Even divisions that did contain a large group of foreign volunteers had a large proportion of Germans in them. And a majority of the SS Volunteers divisions were divisions in name only.

Not exactly. Foreign volunteers provided a substantial part of Waffen SS strength

14th SS Galizien was comprised mostly of Ukrainian volunteers
15th SS (1st Latvian) was comprised mostly of Latvian volunteers
and the list goes on

 

[zeekater]

The list of volunteers for Germany from non-occupied, non-allied countries or from POW's is extremely short.
There were a lot from occupied territories and allies, but those are represented ingame as the manpower you get from conquest and expeditionary forces.

Swedes: about 200 in the Waffen SS, so hardly noticeable. More fought in the Finnish army, one batallion's worth.

Switserland: no more then a 1000, so 1 MP

Spain: at least 45.000 volunteers, all from the 'Blue Legion'

All neighbouring countries.

Italy send some too, but they are allied to Germany so they can send expeditionary forces.
There were a lot of foreign men that fought for Germany during the war (estimated at 2 million!), but most were from occupied territories.

As for the winter war (from wikepedia);

1,010 Danes, 8,700 Swedes, 725 Norwegians, 372 Ingrians, 346 Finnish expatriates, 366 Hungarians and 210 volunteers of other nationalities

12000, of which 10400 from their neighbouring countries.

An ingame system to represent volunteers would be quite difficult IMO, but perhaps worth it. A little help for the Fins during the winter war, some help for Germany.

I'd limit it to neighbouring neutral countries that are very close to your own ideology.
Perhaps add a cost for accepting those volunteers? They most likely wouldn't be able to speak the language, so special treatment and training would be necessairy.

Here's an idea: if you have high enough relations and are close enough in ideology, you could get a 'licence build' for a brigade along with some manpower. That way, you can name the brigades in the event

 

[BlueWarrior]

Not exactly. Foreign volunteers provided a substantial part of Waffen SS strength

14th SS Galizien was comprised mostly of Ukrainian volunteers
15th SS (1st Latvian) was comprised mostly of Latvian volunteers
and the list goes on

During the War 39 SS Divisons where fielded - though not all at the same time.

Some of the Divisions such as the 1St, 2nd and 3rd were composed almost 100% by Germans.

Some such as the 7Th and 8Th where composed to a large part of Volksdeutsche (ethnic germans living outside of Germany proper) but where still considered to be 100% "German".

Very few of the foreign volunteer divisions actually achieved full Divisional status the 5Th "Wiking" (Viking) and the 11Th "Nordland" Divisions being the most notable.

Others, however, such as the 21St "1St Albanian" never reached more than Regimental strength at best.

Once you take out the actual German and Volksdeutsche Divisions you are left with approximately 20 or so Divisions left - and a lot of these where not actually fielded until near the end of the war - 1944/45.

I think that under the current HOI2 system (assuming that it is implemented in a similar way in HOI3) it's probably best represented/thought of as follows:

100% German Divisions - produced from your cores.
Volksdeutsche Divisions - represented by the limited amount of manpower received from conquered territories.
Foreign Volunteers - possibly by way of an event for the larger Divisions and/or represented by the limited amount of manpower received from conquered territories.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The list of volunteers for Germany from non-occupied, non-allied countries or from POW's is extremely short.
There were a lot from occupied territories and allies, but those are represented ingame as the manpower you get from conquest and expeditionary forces.

Swedes: about 200 in the Waffen SS, so hardly noticeable. More fought in the Finnish army, one batallion's worth.

Switserland: no more then a 1000, so 1 MP

Spain: at least 45.000 volunteers, all from the 'Blue Legion'

I agree with this, but its this not because of these Germans beeing alot better at the invading stuff then the diplomatic stuff?

If we can play them differently we might be able to talk alot more nations into our alliance, or befriend them enough to recruit there for our crusade on communism.

12000, of which 10400 from their neighbouring countries.

An ingame system to represent volunteers would be quite difficult IMO, but perhaps worth it. A little help for the Fins during the winter war, some help for Germany.

When talking about the finnish winter war we also need to remember that it lasted only for 3.5 months. One division worth of volunteers in that short time tells me if the war would have draged on they could have counted on alot more. 3 divisions in volunteers per year as a minor is nothing to sneez at.

Perhaps add a cost for accepting those volunteers? They most likely wouldn't be able to speak the language, so special treatment and training would be necessairy.

Here's an idea: if you have high enough relations and are close enough in ideology, you could get a 'licence build' for a brigade along with some manpower. That way, you can name the brigades in the event

Using the licence build feature might fit here yes. But the cost should be a diplomatic one in leadership. The difficult part IMO is beeing allowed to recruit for volunteers in a foregin nation and provide offices and structure to handle them. Once the men are firm in your army they can easilly be organized into suitable units speaking the same language minimizing the requirement of interpreters.

 

[semaphore]

When talking about the finnish winter war we also need to remember that it lasted only for 3.5 months. One division worth of volunteers in that short time tells me if the war would have draged on they could have counted on alot more. 3 divisions in volunteers per year as a minor is nothing to sneez at.

Another way to interpret this is that most of the volunteers who would have volunteered did so at the start, and so that 1 division is pretty much it. Besides, wasn't Sweden actively pressuring Finland to accept peace with the Soviets by the end of the war?

All in all I don't think something so limited in history is worth modelling with its own game mechanics. Events or decisions should be able to do the job.

 

[unmerged(12217)]

Another way to interpret this is that most of the volunteers who would have volunteered did so at the start, and so that 1 division is pretty much it. Besides, wasn't Sweden actively pressuring Finland to accept peace with the Soviets by the end of the war?

All in all I don't think something so limited in history is worth modelling with its own game mechanics. Events or decisions should be able to do the job.

Well said, I absolutely concur.

 

[Oddb@ll]

Yes, an event like "foreign volunteers joins our cause", which gives some mp might suffice. I do really like the thought of foreign volunteers in the armed forces and I think it fits well with the whole new "triangular" diplomatic system that we are seeing.

A diplomatic option for countries who might not want to join the respective alliance but still wish to contribute, as in the scw that has been mentioned so many times in this post. For already allied nations we have good old fashioned exp. forces already.

But perhaps some sort of event like "launch recruiting campaign", with option A costing a sum of money but adding some mp could be do-able? Or maybe a larger event where you launch a campaign and later get an event with the results as in how many actually enlisted (which transforms into mp)?

 

[unmerged(52507)]

On British in the SS, I was under the impression that it was a couple of dozen Pows at most.

As for the issue of volunteers, I do like it for flavour, but I agree with others that it a small thing for a change in game mech. What about an event where the Finns recieve a couple of Swedish brigades? Or a couple of brigades, since I don't think the manpower came in units.

 

[Delta107]

I think that this feature might have historical arguments, but numbers of volunteers were small, and expeditionary forces are a more adecvate solution for supporting other countries.

 

[zeekater]

Events are enough, it's only when things go horribly ahistorical that this would be needed.
So there's no use in going for 'historical accuracy' in case the USA has a civil war and Texas could get volunteers from France or something like that :rofl:

I think that this feature might have historical arguments, but numbers of volunteers were small, and expeditionary forces are a more adecvate solution for supporting other countries.

But not for neutral countries

 

[unmerged(56754)]

On British in the SS, I was under the impression that it was a couple of dozen Pows at most.

27 at its peak ... 59 memebers altogether, but most joined only for a few days.

Not even countable in HOI terms.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Not exactly. Foreign volunteers provided a substantial part of Waffen SS strength

14th SS Galizien was comprised mostly of Ukrainian volunteers
15th SS (1st Latvian) was comprised mostly of Latvian volunteers
and the list goes on

The question was, did foreign volunteers make up 50% of the Waffen SS, my response was 'no, it didn't'.

You list doesn't really go on much further then 5 or 6 divisions out of the 40 that were created by the SS. And all of them had a German cadre.

 

[Bullfrog]

The question was, did foreign volunteers make up 50% of the Waffen SS, my response was 'no, it didn't'.

You list doesn't really go on much further then 5 or 6 divisions out of the 40 that were created by the SS. And all of them had a German cadre.

Some sources state that at the end of the war the German members of the SS were outnumbered by the foreign "volunteers."

Also you can check this site out. It just details the number of men from each nation that were in SS divisions. It also shows the divisions that they made up. But yes there were German officers and NCOs in command of most divisions, at least in the beginning.

http://www.waffen-ss.no/Volunteers.htm

 

[unmerged(131989)]

I think it would be a good idea considering all of the foreign volunteers that took part in other nation's wars. For instance, the Spanish Civil War, there were many foreigners, on both sides, who fought against eachother even if they were from the same country originally.

 

[Eams]

Also you can check this site out. It just details the number of men from each nation that were in SS divisions. It also shows the divisions that they made up. But yes there were German officers and NCOs in command of most divisions, at least in the beginning.

http://www.waffen-ss.no/Volunteers.htm

And some of those numbers seem quite inflated, the number of Danes that I've seen mentioned as serving in the Waffen-SS is around 6000, just over half of what that site lists. On the other, the number of Swiss is far lower than I've seen mentioned (750, not 300).

As for the in-game function, I'd prefer to see it as applying only in defensive wars, and possibly only for democracies.

 

[Bullfrog]

And some of those numbers seem quite inflated, the number of Danes that I've seen mentioned as serving in the Waffen-SS is around 6000, just over half of what that site lists. On the other, the number of Swiss is far lower than I've seen mentioned (750, not 300).

As for the in-game function, I'd prefer to see it as applying only in defensive wars, and possibly only for democracies.

Here is another site that has some similar numbers, some are different...Denmark is still 10k though.

http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss

If you believe the site, there is approximately 350-400 manpower used from foreign sources when translated into HOI terms. Can this kind of number be reached via foreign manpower use from annexed territories?
I think in fact with the right minister, in normal difficulty, Germany can (over the course of 5 years) gain 400 and more manpower easily from foreign sources. I am not making hardcore calculations, but if Germany increases her daily mp gain from .9 to 1.2 from Danzig - late 1941, and holds her annexed lands until 1944, she can gain a total of 396 manpower. Sounds about right.

 

[Zelino]

But how many instances of volunteers were there, really? Sure, Swedish volunteers to Finland during the Winter War and apparently also to Germany during WW2. Enough to fill out entire divisions? I find that hard to believe.

To answer your question, there were 8260 swedish, 727 norwegian, and 1010 danish volunteers during the winter war, making one entire division.
However they only saw battle for about 20 days more or less and were rushed to training and not the best equipment, but 10 000 men is more than 0.

 

[Voss]

I'd love that ! Possibility of creating units in fe occupied Poland would be just great ;DD.

 

[unmerged(12217)]

I think this whole foreign volunteer thing can be handled with an event and a few special units that come to the German player with the events. It's not historically significant in numbers or effect upon the war.

 

[unmerged(52507)]

27 at its peak ... 59 memebers altogether, but most joined only for a few days.

Not even countable in HOI terms.

Thanks, I thought that was about it .

Perhaps the Republican Spanish can have a couple of international brigades as part of an event too. The German volunteers seem well modelled by the gain in occupied manpower.