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RagingJaws

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Precisely this. "Contact" was never even established between ships at Midway, none were ever in sight of one another. The current mechanics reflect WWI naval combat, not WWII.

Reflecting WWI naval combat is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be fun to play as the player to use an all dreadnought fleet. Carriers are still exceptionally strong and the naval game is usually over after I get a few built, regardless of doctrine.

'The War at Sea' limits you to four dockyards per ship, and the UI seemed to cope fine. I suppose it might be different if you play as the US with its dockyard lake.

Don't have any experience with this mod but I find that when mods restrict a player, in better order to reflect what the mod author thinks is a superior gameplay realization of a historical situation, it's often not. Punishing the player, especially those that play minors and need to do naval catch up, doesn't really bring anything positive. To put into perspective what I mean, if the Germany player is forced to use only 4 dockyards per ship, it would never ever come close to WWII submarine production. During the war, they build somewhere between 1150-1250 (depending on if you count midget submarines). It's even worse for the allies, with their combined production of almost 1800 ships! That's not even counting vessels that don't register in the game, like minesweepers/sloops/PT boats.

That's not to say that dockyards don't need work though. Oh and Germany still needs at least the Flugzeugtraeger B-class carrier unlocked, while we're discussing naval stuff!
 

Agiknight

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Right now there is not very much penalty to oversupplying a port. You can be at 500/100 supply on a level 10 port and it doesn't matter one lick until that fleet tries to dock there for repairs. How about a fleet not being able to do anything if it's home port is oversupplied? Seems like an easy fix to the doomstack problem without having to change very much.

I am very much in favor of a ground-up naval rework though. There is a lot wrong with the current system.
 

SeekTruthFromFx

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I don't have any experience with this mod but I find that when mods restrict a player, in better order to reflect what the mod author thinks is a superior gameplay realization of a historical situation, it's often not. Punishing the player, especially those that play minors and need to do naval catch up, doesn't really bring anything positive. To put into perspective what I mean, if the Germany player is forced to use only 4 dockyards per ship, it would never ever come close to WWII submarine production. During the war, they build somewhere between 1150-1250 (depending on if you count midget submarines). It's even worse for the allies, with their combined production of almost 1800 ships! That's not even counting vessels that don't register in the game, like minesweepers/sloops/PT boats.

That's not to say that dockyards don't need work though. Oh and Germany still needs at least the Flugzeugtraeger B-class carrier unlocked, while we're discussing naval stuff!

I think you've misunderstood how the mechanic works. Four dockyards per ship is no obstacle to Germany's submarine production (quite the opposite), because you just allocate several lines to submarines. E.g. instead of having one line producing a submarine three times a month, you have three lines producing one sub a month: the output is the same. But it does stop you producing a battleship in 12 months, which isn't realistic. Major capital ships couldn't be mass-produced in this era (witness the fiasco of Germany's Type XXI U-boat programme). The cap increases naval build times, as the OP suggested, but in a way that helps rather than hinders minor powers.
 

davidc929

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Two points I'd like to make.

First one based on your submarine ideas. It should be very hard for submarines to be detected until they make their first attack on a convoy. Thereafter it should be very easy for escorting destroyers to chase them off but not destroy them. So two things would happen. Subs would make a lot of one or two ships kills but would not wipe out entire convoys unless they were unescorted. And huge numbers of subs would not be sunk but they would be easily chased off. This would encourage players to place destroyers in many seazones.

Secondly I can assign a fleet to a sea zone and assuming they are not sunk or heavily damaged I never need to worry about then again. They need never come to port to resupply, undergo repair or even give the crew shore leave.

So how about a mechanic that limits the time spent at sea? Certain technologies can extend this time. But at the end of this time the ships return automatically to port. And the longer they were at sea they longer they have to return for.

Perhaps another aspect would be to add attrition to ships at sea just from the simple fact of being at sea. A lot of the Atlantic escorts had to go into dry dock becuase of the damage they had taken in storms. But there is none of this here.

Pick a Wikipedia entry on a major warship in WW2. Let's say HMS Warspite, and you'll see that they spent a significant amount of time in port undergoing refits and repairs. Again there is none of this.

If you only had half your capital ships available at any one time it would certainly reduce doomstacks. It would also require planning for naval engagements. I could make the conscious decision to put all of Germany's subs at sea for the start of WW2 for maximum impact. But I'd have to take into account that this strategy would mean after a few months I'd have virtually nothing at sea until they had returned to dock for a period.

Add in weather effects for time of year and it would mean the player would have to decide do the try and keep a constant pressure all year round or do they scale back operations in winter to conserve force for the summer.
 

Farquarsen

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@davidc929 Totally agree. I really like the attrition idea. There is only a certain amount of food a vessel can hold, especially a submarine. I need to do more research but at a certain point in time after leaving port, a sub has to restock its food supply. The longer out the less effective a crew. So, up to 30 days out, sub attacks with full strength, no attrition modification, say 60 days and it loses 10% and at 90 days it has to return to port or its crew starves to death at sea. This game should not be Jules Verne's 20000 leagues under the sea where the Nautless stays at sea indefinitely. I do know that some who play this game like the fire and forget naval set up so they can concentrate on the land game. i am sure there are others who would like the opposite, fire and forget the land and concentrate on the naval. I would really like to be challenged and have to deal with both the land and the navy.
 

RagingJaws

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I think you've misunderstood how the mechanic works. Four dockyards per ship is no obstacle to Germany's submarine production (quite the opposite), because you just allocate several lines to submarines. E.g. instead of having one line producing a submarine three times a month, you have three lines producing one sub a month: the output is the same. But it does stop you producing a battleship in 12 months, which isn't realistic. Major capital ships couldn't be mass-produced in this era (witness the fiasco of Germany's Type XXI U-boat programme). The cap increases naval build times, as the OP suggested, but in a way that helps rather than hinders minor powers.

After taking a look at the numbers, I get anywhere form a year and a month (a few Essex-class Carriers) to 2 years and 10 months (Iowa-class Battleships). So yeah, just comparing the build times the game seems to build capitals really fast. However, what isn't represented in game that happens in RL is the allocation of resources. Many of the ships I've looked at were ordered months previously to the start of construction, which isn't represented in game, and I assume that part of the wait was the allocation of materials and the paperwork that we players don't have to deal with. Because in game, as soon as you place a build order the construction begins as though all the tons of materials were already sitting at the shipyard.

I guess building times do need to be balanced but being too harsh on it wouldn't be fun either. Carriers in particular seem to take far too little time to build, considering their impact. Was checking in game and you can almost build two tech II aircraft carriers in a year!

I didn't look at the numbers for smaller ships though.

Having to do refits would be a good mechanic to add. No scurvy please!
 

Axe99

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Cheers for the tags @SeekTruthFromFx and @hkrommel, and great thread HKRommel :) I do indeed have many thoughts on things naval (and have made numerous suggestion threads). I'm a bit crook now, so this won't be (too much of) a mega-post (and there are already some great thoughts on the naval game here - I highly recommend @davidc929 's entire post) some brief (for me :p) thoughts on the naval game are* (noting that I'm an enthusiast, not an expert):

Naval warfare is all about Sea Lines of Communication (SLOCs). Get the SLOCs right, and the rest of the naval game should be much easier to get right around it. SLOCs were the reason fleets existed, and why they were used. In HoI4, SLOCs are international convoy routes, troop transfers and naval invasions. The other key SLOC that's not in the game at the moment is coastal convoys, and German pressure on British coastal convoys in the Channel and off the East Coast caused headaches for Britain from the start of the war until post-D-Day. Operation Starvation, which hit Japanese coastal SLOCs late-war was devastating to the Japanese economy.

I can't reiterate this enough though - any discussion of naval warfare, at any time in history, should start with SLOCs, end with SLOCs and have SLOCs in the middle :).

It was generally easier to attack SLOCs than to defend them. Submarines and raiders only needed to find one convoy to create damage, but each convoy needed escorts to be protected from potential attack. Protecting SLOCs should be expensive.

Doomstacks were theoretically possible and, indeed, formed parts of important war plans. The US war plan, prior to losing most of their battle line at Pearl Harbor, planned to sail the fleet as a unit to the Philippines to relieve it. The British war plan for a war with Japan (prior to Germany and Italy getting all feisty) was 'Main fleet to Singapore'. Where possible, concentration of force trumped dispersion (the Japanese had some funny ideas strategically and learned the hard war that dispersion was generally not such a great idea, but there was no operational reason they couldn't have had all their carriers at Midway, and had the US not broken the Japanese codes maybe their elaborate deceptions would have paid off, who knows?)

So the answer to doomstacks isn't some historically implausible stacking limit, but rather making it make no strategic sense. To roll with an analogy, from a land perspective concentration of force for an offensive is important, but you don't clear the rest of your borders to achieve it. Same with naval warfare - SLOCs need defending, are harder to defend than attack, and it should make a lot less sense to doomstack, at least until one side has the naval superiority to get away with it.

The other key to this is to make naval losses more sensible (at the moment they're insane, and serve neither gameplay nor historical plausibility) and make disengaging easier. Very few fleets, particularly of any size, came close to being fully wiped out in a naval battle.

One other key is to make battles shorter - at the moment, battles snowball, and take so long that they can literally involve forces from half the world away. It's a little ironic, after all the arguments against 'Total War'-style land battles in HoI, we now have a similar approach to naval battles, and pretty much all of the issues raised for the land battles are felt in full force. So combining all of one's naval forces into a huge doomstack to take control of one sea zone will come at the cost of a sensible opponent ravaging SLOCs elsewhere, in most cases. Jutland happened because Germany had to go through the North Sea to get to Britain's SLOCs, so it made sense for both sides to concentrate.

Thus, while doomstacks were theoretically possible, and arguably occurred in a HoI4 sense late-game in the Pacific, and for D-Day, they were only strategically sensible once the side doomstacking had got its SLOCs in order, by building enough warships.

* I could write a lot more than this - there's convoy routing, tactical/operational issues, technology, the importance of repair and refits, ship types, naval mines, coordination between land-based air and ships, etc., but a bit crook so this'll have to do for now.

They knew they couldn't defeat the British fleet whole, so they "doomstacked" and ended up trading blows quite favorably with the British. The problem was that they lost too many ships themselves, and they never sortied again.

Actually, as best I understand it the German fleet was hoping to catch a portion of the British fleet (so get local superiority), but the British fleet had better intel and ambushed the German fleet. The only reason the Germans did so well was because of the fragility (for reasons that are still controversial) of the British BC squadron - in the main fleet action, the German fleet was very lucky to get away as well as it did, but as best I understand it was very much second-best in the main fleet encounter.

It was over for the Japanese after Midway, and they only lost a few capital ships.

Strictly speaking, the Japanese still had more carriers in the Pacific after Midway, such that the USN actually had to 'borrow' HMS Victorious from late 1942 to end July 1943. This goes back to ship build times - historically plausible ship build times give Japan a window where they can cause trouble in the Pacific, while the current accelerated build times mean the USN starts the Pacific War far stronger than it was historically, and has a steady stream of new ships from the get-go.

I believe there is a simple and elegant solution to the doomstack problem: put a cap on the number of ships that can operate from any one naval base according to the size of the base, and limit the range of fleets to a given distance from their home base, rather than any friendly base.

This definitely sounds like something worth considering. If I could mod this, I'd do it and see what happened :).

then doomstacks would become irrelevant because the planes would kill them. All Pacific naval battles in WWII worth noting were centered on land conflict. Midway was a Japanese plan to invade and take Midway Island. Guadalcanal, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa, all were centered on land invasions.

This is only the case if the doomstack doesn't bring carriers to the battle. Based on this theory, Japan should have hammered the USN at the Battle of the Philippine, as Japan got a large first strike away first - but effective radar-directed fighter control by this stage of the war could nullify a first strike. Two fleets with this capability, contesting a fixed point, could theoretically benefit from the hitting power of BBs - as if planes could be neutralised (either by other planes, or night, such as at Guadalcanal or Surigoa Strait), BBs were still very dangerous.

We've considered adding a ridiculously high speed buff to submarines in our MP group. It's a silly hack, but it would solve a number of submarine issues.

Sadly, it's the best solution I could come up with. Feels janky, but seems to help things more than anything else, without turning subs into sea-clearing monsters.

Mods are much more limited than what the devs could do, so I think the devs could come up with a more elegant solution.

Oh aye - fully agree. Things in the base game also become available for everyone, and for all other mods :).
 

hkrommel

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Strictly speaking, the Japanese still had more carriers in the Pacific after Midway, such that the USN actually had to 'borrow' HMS Victorious from late 1942 to end July 1943. This goes back to ship build times - historically plausible ship build times give Japan a window where they can cause trouble in the Pacific, while the current accelerated build times mean the USN starts the Pacific War far stronger than it was historically, and has a steady stream of new ships from the get-go.

Thanks for your post. I did want to briefly respond to this bit (also we're on the same page about Jutland, I just communicated in vague terms). Japan was done in the sense that they no longer could project the power they needed to. Their "defense ring" strategy whereby they could sit back under land-based planes and let the USN batter itself against its defenses was no longer viable. They could make advances in the south Pacific or the central Pacific, but not both. That meant they had to choose between blunting the US in the central Pacific again (they didn't) and trying to cut off Australia (which they did try to do). The whole war for them was a race against time, and that time was severely cut when they lost their carriers at Midway. After that, they couldn't hope to win on their terms (analogous to Stalingrad for the Germans)
 

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Just so we are clear about doomstacks. At least the ones I have come across all have carriers. Destroyers are destroyed at an alarming ahistorical rate, battleships contact carriers also not very historical and carriers stay in the mix when they no longer have aircraft. What is wrong with this picture? First the aircraft are not scouting, the destroyers are not screening and carriers are too close to cruisers and battleships that could sink them. @Axe99 I do agree with you on SLOCs, I would just add the devs also need to concentrate on how battles should progress once contact is made.
 

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As has been said many times, different devs write focus trees and game mechanics, so this is not an either/or decision.

Well then they should change the division of labor and stop having their "engine" people spend their time on engine tasks whose purpose is to make work for the "scripter" team. It's not like they are legally required to have that division of labor. They chose to do so. Once upon a time, paradox didn't make excuses like this.
 

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Thanks for your post. I did want to briefly respond to this bit (also we're on the same page about Jutland, I just communicated in vague terms). Japan was done in the sense that they no longer could project the power they needed to. Their "defense ring" strategy whereby they could sit back under land-based planes and let the USN batter itself against its defenses was no longer viable. They could make advances in the south Pacific or the central Pacific, but not both. That meant they had to choose between blunting the US in the central Pacific again (they didn't) and trying to cut off Australia (which they did try to do). The whole war for them was a race against time, and that time was severely cut when they lost their carriers at Midway. After that, they couldn't hope to win on their terms (analogous to Stalingrad for the Germans)

Midway definitely sped up the end. Arguably, Japan was done from the get-go, unless they could repeat enough large defeats in the USN to get them to agree to a compromise peace before US industrial power made achieving that impossible. Decisively losing their first attempt didn't do them any favours! I was more arguing that they were still capable of 'pushing out' a bit after Midway (hence Guadalcanal), and it wasn't until mid-1943 that they were fully on the defensive - but I think we're pretty much on the same page here, just how we're writing it :), sorry for the confusion.

Just so we are clear about doomstacks. At least the ones I have come across all have carriers. Destroyers are destroyed at an alarming ahistorical rate, battleships contact carriers also not very historical and carriers stay in the mix when they no longer have aircraft. What is wrong with this picture? First the aircraft are not scouting, the destroyers are not screening and carriers are too close to cruisers and battleships that could sink them. @Axe99 I do agree with you on SLOCs, I would just add the devs also need to concentrate on how battles should progress once contact is made.

Aye, how the actual battles work (imo) could definitely be improved, no two ways about that :).

Oh yeah, radar and code breaking. Marvelous concepts that do not seem to be simulated correctly in the game.

Too right! Dag nab it, knew I'd forget more than a few important things - you could throw signals intelligence into that as well (HF/DF and friends).
 

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In the OP, @hkrommel said that the two main problems with the naval game were (1) the presence of Doomstacks and (2) the absence of the Commerce War. I broadly agree with the points made there. In my view, there are three more major gameplay problems:

(3) The excess number of Inconsequential Alerts. If you're playing as a naval power, you are deluged by endless reports of inconclusive convoy battles. I usually play on speed 1 and 2 in mid-game, and even then I can't keep up.

(4) The shortage of Interesting Decisions. You assign your ships to fleets and your fleets to strategic regions and that's it. Once a naval battle has started, almost the only thing you can do is sit and watch - and since they last for days or weeks, that's not something you can afford to do if you're also fighting on land (i.e. as all of the most-played countries). You can send further fleets to intervene, but of course that's the thing that was almost impossible to do IRL: naval commanders could very rarely radio for further reinforcements from a home port.

(5) Convoy Routing is very pretty, but players have no control over it. Not only does this remove one of the major strategic decisions of the naval war, but it also means you tend to end up with the Battle of Biscay Bay, not the Battle of the Atlantic, because that's where all the convoys go. In addition, the game does not store data on the strength of individual convoy ships. I have no problem with aggregation (as you will see), but that means that attacks by NAVs and SS are either inconsequential or devastating, because there's no room for 'damaged but not sunk'.

To fix all of these problems, I think naval warfare needs to be divided into two levels: a Corbettian level using an aggregated totals (like the air war) and a Mahanian level with individual ships (like current naval warfare, but more so). Convoy Routing (5) stands more on its own and will be addressed in a third part.

Corbettian Control of the Sea Should Be Aggregated and Interactive

One level of naval warfare, representing the Commerce War (2) and control of the seas, should take place at a strategic region level and you should interact with it through an expanded version of the air warfare screen. Here is a mock-up:

Naval Warfare Mockup.png


As at present, fleets would be assigned to strategic regions. If you want to, you can see the 3D models sailing around that region. But they wouldn't just be waiting for a big Battle (capital B) to start. Just like as aircraft do, the game would be carrying out background calculations for small battles (small b) all the time without giving you alerts. In fact, it might well make sense to simply integrate the Commerce War into the air warfare code. A Naval Bomber conducting Naval Strike might find itself in battle with a Light Fighter on an Air Superiority mission, or it might find itself in battle with a CL on a Protect Convoy mission or a Convoy on a Transport Troops mission. All the fleets present in the region would be aggregated, just as air wings are. In most cases, the game would calculate the result of the battle and add it to the totals seen on the above screen. You wouldn't normally get an alert. But if the battle had serious consequences (a division is destroyed; an island no longer has enough supply), either by itself or as a tipping point, then the existing alerts should usually pick it up.

Sea control shouldn't be a simple yes/no, but a relative concept: an aggregated number, which would indicate the probability of naval invasions and troop transports getting through, and would also control the efficiency of relevant Convoys on Import/Export/Lend-Lease missions. If you have more ships than the enemy, and you have won more recent battles, then your sea control goes up. If all your ships are in Doomstacks (1), then you're going to cede sea control of many other regions, and that is going to hurt.

While the naval war could use the same functions as the air war, there would be some important differences in the maths. In the naval war, the number of battles is much smaller. One Light Fighter has a good chance of encountering another Light Fighter when there are 1,000 enemy planes in the air. When the enemy only has 40 SS chasing 50 Convoys, there will be far few interactions, and detection numbers will reflect this. But, conversely, the size of the battles will be much bigger. I think the air battles are limited to 1v2 (for the air element of naval battles) and 1v3 (for purely air battles). Naval warfare would need bigger numbers, and the size of battle should vary according to the types of mission involved and the naval doctrines chosen: so Convoys on an Import mission with a Big Convoys doctrine v. Subs with an Intercept Convoys mission with a Wolf Pack doctrine might be 30 (20 Convoys, 9 DDs, 1 LC) v 20 (all SS). But the player won't see any of this directly: it will all be aggregated, just as with the air war.

Note also that there would be an overall detection number, just as in the air war, so detection would be far more aggregated than at present. (EDIT: Others have cross-posted about the importance of signals intelligence and naval radar. This was all about building up naval commanders' overall intelligence picture. You should be able to boost the Strategic-Regional detection number by having an encryption advantage, by fielding ships with radar sets and perhaps building Radio Listening Posts nearby).

However, the player should be given Interesting Decisions. I've already suggested that doctrines should make a big difference. Players who buy the naval DLC (since this patch needs to be paid for!) should be able to use Command Power to add more detailed strategies, just as you can Add Extra Ground Crews to air warfare. These might include 'Avoid Capital Ship Combat', 'Deploy DD as SS Tenders' (to help subs to rebuild strength more quickly), instructing crews to 'Protect Convoys at all Costs', or choosing between 'Close Blockade' and 'Intercept at Sea'. One important option would be a 'Fleet in Being' strategy, available only in strategic regions where you have a friendly port. Fleets with this setting wouldn't be involved in the day to day battles, but they would contribute (at a reduced level) towards your sea control score, and they would be involved in the big set-piece Battles.

Mahanian Battles Should Be Rare But Engaging

We have said that the size of battle will vary depending on the number of aircraft and ships involved. If the normal calculations throw up an encounter between sizes of sufficient strength (probably anything involving capital ships, as well as large convoy battles), then and only then is the Battle simulated in more detail and in a specific province. Such major, Mahanian Battles should be rare, but will have a major influence on the outcome of the naval war. As the UK or USA, you might see this once a month during the peak of the Pacific War; if you play the USSR historically, you might never see it.

At the very least, such Battles should throw up an alert. In fact, it would probably make sense for players to have the option for the game to automatically pop up the minimap and slow the game down to speed 1. That's unhelpful for high-speed MP or people playing land-locked Switzerland, but if you're a major naval power in SP, you ought to be paying close attention when your equivalent of Midway or D-Day happens. And even in MP, the fact that Japan may or may not lose most of its CVs in the next ten game hours is surely going to affect everybody's strategy. It's going to be worth 2 minutes of everybody's (real-life) time, with every player watching on the edge of their seats! I know that PDX has historically avoided tactical minigames (outside of Svea Rike), but actually, the current (1.5) naval war is already based on a minigame display. It's just a frustrating one because you can't really interact with it, an unrealistic one because the Battles drag on for weeks, and an unappealing one because individual Battles rarely change your overall strategy. Rare but engaging Battles would be great for generating the stories that make PDX games great.

To be engaging, these major Battles would function the same as current Battles, but with three changes.

Firstly, the fleets involved and the timing and size of any reinforcements are set at the start of the Battle based on what's available in the strategic region. Given the size of HoI4 strategic regions, you're not going to be able to rush in any reinforcements in the short period of time (half a day to a couple of days) that a 1940s naval Battle takes. So the game will generate & store the reinforcements at the start of the Battle ("in the fourth hour, add 4 DD I and 172 NAV IIs"), but the players and AI will only see them added to the Battle at the appropriate time.

Secondly, the location and purpose of the Battles should matter more than it does right now. So when a Battle starts, the game will note the purpose of the fleets involved and (probabilistically) assign a particular province within the Strategic Region to it. The number of land-based aircraft that are involved in the Battle should depend on the precise location (so range really matters). The purpose of the respective fleets should affect how they behave. If you have a Convoy on a Troop Transport mission about to land in enemy/your own territory, then the fleets on Convoy Protection and Convoy Interception respectively are going to engage aggressively. If it's core territory, then they will tend to go for all-out attack on the convoys. If you have a Convoy on a Import mission, then they are more likely to just run away. There are currently four different missions, which gives 16 combinations: that's enough to program a discrete AI aggressive setting for each. I think Convoys should also be considered as having as missions (Troop Transport/Import/Lend-Lease/Supply), and as stated would add some modifiers based on location, but I still think that there are sufficiently few combinations that the AI programmers could pre-assign sensible strategies (DDs attack aggresively; SS attack underwater; SS attack above water; Convoys flee, etc.) to each discrete possibility in a lookup table.

Thirdly, if you've bought the naval DLC, then you should be able to use Command Power to issue such tactical instructions (probably the same ones issued at the aggregated level and used by the discrete AI, such as 'Avoid Capital Ship Combat' or 'Convoys Flee') based on the situation in this particular Battle. If your Grand Fleet is facing an unprotected convoy, you can be more aggressive. If the enemy's 5 carrier fleet then appears, you can order 'All ships flee' or sacrifice some DDs in an aggressive attack. So you won't just be watching the battle on the edge of your seat, but you'll be able to engage and influence the outcome (within the resources and reinforcements predetermined at the start).

Convoy Routing Should Be Based on Larger, Nodal Sea Regions

My third suggestion is a more tentative one to deal with the issues in Convoy Routing (5) and the other aspects can be implemented without it.

At the moment, convoys are set by the game, which removes Interesting Decisions (4) from the player (should I take the risky route through the Med or the safe route around Africa?). But I realize why this has been done: path-finding is extremely computationally intensive and so it's very difficult for the AI to make decisions between different alternatives without slowing the game down to a crawl. IMHO the best way to solve this is to steal the solution used by EUIV and make convoy routing nodal. Instead of being routed from province to province, convoys should be routed through a limited number of nodes, each of which would be identified with a single sea Strategic Region (for deploying ships and aircraft). To keep the numbers to a computationally feasible level, these would be much larger than at present. Here is another mock-up (red lines indicate straits and canals):

Naval Nodal Regions.png

That map is probably still too Eurocentric, but it gives you the idea. The efficiency of trade routes would be based on the level of sea control at the various nodes that it passed through. The network is still large enough to make AI calculations hard, but hopefully it would be manageable for each tag's AI to periodically (monthly?) calculate the efficiency of its routes (given current sea control levels) and assess whether it might be worthwhile to change the convoy routing and/or redeploy its fleets and aircraft.

The efficiency calculation could be based on the mean of sea control, or on the lowest level of sea control on the route. But in my view, the best way to make this function would be to actually simulate convoys as ships, with missions, and then (a) assign them to strategic regions or (b) simulate the journey. Either approach would allow them to engage in battles and take damage, so each convoy battle is no longer sink-or-survive. Using regional assignment (a), then efficiency would depend upon the minimum convoy capacity of the nodes that the route uses. Using journeys (b), when the convoy arrives at its destination, then the trade efficiency for that route is updated according to the number of convoy ships that made it. Either way, the outcome of a big convoy Battle might really matter to players. And the size of each convoy (whether you assign/send 8 ships every month or 24 ships every 3 months) is something that could be affected by naval doctrines (and if you have the DLC, naval tactics).
 
Last edited:

aragon150

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Okay what about reducing the penality for not being able to pierce to say 25% for ships making org more of a dynamic factor lowering capital ship org and making torpedos ignore armour or get a bonus upping the strengths of planes in general when it comes to naval combat I haven't really played around with the trade war but what if we bunched conveys up that would make them more vulnerable without escorts right
 

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Oh yeah, radar and code breaking. Marvelous concepts that do not seem to be simulated correctly in the game.

I don't know what HOI4 you've been playing, but RADAR and decryption are vital techs. Maybe not against the AI, but they are pretty important against human opponents.

Aside from RADAR's impact on the air war, it really helps in detecting stuff at sea. I usually put RADAR everywhere I can afford to. By the time 1941 rolls around, you should have enough RADAR in place to more or less remove fog of war on all of western Europe, the important parts of the Pacific, the Med and North Africa, and the coast of North America.

You want to know what maximum fun is? Maximum fun is planning Overlord with so much RADAR and decryption that you can more or less all Axis forces in western Europe as well as the Axis can.

Well secluded, I see all.

7307339a-687d-422b-ad53-b64784edd392.jpg


Oh, and submarines and NAVs do better when RADAR helps them find targets.
 

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To help the trade war what if conveys could do more but were harder to produce. Ship production is a bit tricky cause Germany made quite a few ships in the interwar years and we can't match that number if i recall correctly what if the production cost goes up and you can't build outdated models due to them being not being the production we could buff non capital ships in general that could help them be useful since they're supposed to valuable support making naval bases have a limited range and capacity and making navies switch bases could help so a fleet in europe would use Bristol instead of say Boston
 

davidc929

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@davidc929 Totally agree. I really like the attrition idea. There is only a certain amount of food a vessel can hold, especially a submarine. I need to do more research but at a certain point in time after leaving port, a sub has to restock its food supply. The longer out the less effective a crew. So, up to 30 days out, sub attacks with full strength, no attrition modification, say 60 days and it loses 10% and at 90 days it has to return to port or its crew starves to death at sea. This game should not be Jules Verne's 20000 leagues under the sea where the Nautless stays at sea indefinitely. I do know that some who play this game like the fire and forget naval set up so they can concentrate on the land game. i am sure there are others who would like the opposite, fire and forget the land and concentrate on the naval. I would really like to be challenged and have to deal with both the land and the navy.
@davidc929 Totally agree. I really like the attrition idea. There is only a certain amount of food a vessel can hold, especially a submarine. I need to do more research but at a certain point in time after leaving port, a sub has to restock its food supply. The longer out the less effective a crew. So, up to 30 days out, sub attacks with full strength, no attrition modification, say 60 days and it loses 10% and at 90 days it has to return to port or its crew starves to death at sea. This game should not be Jules Verne's 20000 leagues under the sea where the Nautless stays at sea indefinitely. I do know that some who play this game like the fire and forget naval set up so they can concentrate on the land game. i am sure there are others who would like the opposite, fire and forget the land and concentrate on the naval. I would really like to be challenged and have to deal with both the land and the navy.
I think doing it along those lines would work very well. Now technology should be able to help extend this. The Americans did a very good job of setting up their Pacific fleet to be able to stay away from port for a significant period of time. But this was very resource intensive. It should require a significant industrial commitment.

A few other problems that are worth considering.

The Italians and Germans kept the majority of their fleet, or at least capital ships, in port for most of the war due to a shortage of fuel. At least in HOI3 being at sea used up some of the fuel and supply stockpile. There were times as Germany I did keep their surface ships in port to conserve fuel. Particularly while invading the Soviet union. Now there is absolutely no need to do that.

Secondly the way resources work now is both better and worse. I've just declared war on Poland in the game I am currently playing. As such I have almost immediately been cut off from all rubber supplies. So as Germany I have had to make an immediate decision on what I prioritise producing with my limited rubber supplies. Should I put fighters or trucks to the front? In HOI3 that was rarely an issue as I'd have built a stockpile up that would last until modest once stockpiles stolen from European capitals was added in.

On the other hand when playing Britain I've never felt at risk of having enough convoys sunk to starve my industry. The best I've seen in either HOI3 or hoi4 against an AI Britain is that you maybe sink enough convoys that Al production is given over to making them. But even that is of little consequence in HOI4 as naval production is separate from everything else.

This does limit the playability of the game. Play the Soviet Union and you can ignore the naval war. As Germany you pretty much can as well if you choose or at least have it a low priority.

But as Britain if there is no intensive naval war what exactly do you do for several years? You sit comfortably on your island knowing there is little threat of being invaded and no threat from resources being cut off. America and Japan are similar.
 

aragon150

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I think doing it along those lines would work very well. Now technology should be able to help extend this. The Americans did a very good job of setting up their Pacific fleet to be able to stay away from port for a significant period of time. But this was very resource intensive. It should require a significant industrial commitment.

A few other problems that are worth considering.

The Italians and Germans kept the majority of their fleet, or at least capital ships, in port for most of the war due to a shortage of fuel. At least in HOI3 being at sea used up some of the fuel and supply stockpile. There were times as Germany I did keep their surface ships in port to conserve fuel. Particularly while invading the Soviet union. Now there is absolutely no need to do that.

Secondly the way resources work now is both better and worse. I've just declared war on Poland in the game I am currently playing. As such I have almost immediately been cut off from all rubber supplies. So as Germany I have had to make an immediate decision on what I prioritise producing with my limited rubber supplies. Should I put fighters or trucks to the front? In HOI3 that was rarely an issue as I'd have built a stockpile up that would last until modest once stockpiles stolen from European capitals was added in.

On the other hand when playing Britain I've never felt at risk of having enough convoys sunk to starve my industry. The best I've seen in either HOI3 or hoi4 against an AI Britain is that you maybe sink enough convoys that Al production is given over to making them. But even that is of little consequence in HOI4 as naval production is separate from everything else.

This does limit the playability of the game. Play the Soviet Union and you can ignore the naval war. As Germany you pretty much can as well if you choose or at least have it a low priority.

But as Britain if there is no intensive naval war what exactly do you do for several years? You sit comfortably on your island knowing there is little threat of being invaded and no threat from resources being cut off. America and Japan are similar.
Raise the production cost of convoys but require fewer of them to trade but more to supply. Make the loss of a convoy ean more in terms of lost resources.
 
Last edited:

davidc929

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Raise the production cost of conveys but require fewer of them to trade but more to supply. Make the loss of a convey mean more in terms of lost resources.
I agree. There has to be something that makes me think "crap I've lost enough convoys today that this is another day I won't have enough rubber for full production, I better stop those U-boats now".

Or even better "that's 50 tanks at the bottom of the sea. I'll need to hold off on that offensive in Egypt for a bit longer".