Idea Review

[Talamare]

• Economic Ideas:
  • Bonus now gives -10% Development Cost instead of -20%.

This feels like an overnerf. Economy Ideas are barely playable, and I understand that they are buffing Development Costs in other ways, but it doesn't change that this is a strict nerf to Economic Ideas.
Let's compare the other Admin Ideas
We have Humanist, Religious, and Administrative; clearly the S rank Ideas
We have Expansion which is super popular for a specific group
We have Innovative that are getting significant buffs this patch

Guess what, this leaves Economic as arguably the worst idea of the Admin bunch. I can't think of any of their Policies that are especially notable either.

• Innovative Ideas:
  • ‘Optimism’ now also gives +1 Leaders without Upkeep.
  • 'Formalized Officer Corps' replaced by ‘Expanded Policies’, now granting +1 Free Policies.

Solid buffs, Innovative Ideas have been needing a bump for a long time now. I'm not sure if this is enough, to compete against HRA; but it makes taking Innovative feel less bad.

• Espionage:
  • ‘State Propaganda’ now also reduces Covert Action Relation Impact by -100%.
  • 'Agent Training' now gives -15% Advisor Cost.
  • ‘Vetting’ now also grants -0.2 Yearly Corruption.
  • 'Privateers' now give +25% Chance to Capture Enemy Ships instead of +25% Embargo Efficiency.
  • ‘Audit Checks’ replaced by ‘Blackmailing’, now granting:
    • Reasons to Accept Vassalization +15.
    • Monthly Favors Modifier +33%.
  • Bonus now gives Rebel Support Efficiency of 100% instead of 50%.

Oh wow these are massive buffs... Have people seriously not realized how strong Espionage Ideas really is?
State Propaganda is a cool feature, still not super relevant.
Agent Training and Vetting are huge economical boosts; Agent Training is nearly as strong as full Innovation, which is arguably most of the reason you take Innovation
Blackmailing is extremely useful increasing Trust (ironic) which can help you manipulate vassals and accomplish other goals.
Basically, Diplomatic is looking worse and worse.

• Exploration Ideas:
  • ‘Free Colonies’ now gives +10% Settler Chance.
  • ‘Global Empire’ now also gives +25% Treasure Fleet Income.

Fair, Exploration was a little overnerfed; Still insanely popular and usable even after it was overnerfed; but overnerfed nonetheless.
Global Empire makes me curious if they are going to fix the stacking issue that causes people to get absurdly huge Treasure Fleets

• Trade Ideas
  • ‘National Trade Policy’ now also decreases Promote Mercantilism Cost by 25%.
  • Bonus now also gives +10% Loyalty of the Burghers/Vaisyas

You guys realize that it costs 100 Diplo to Promote Mercantalism? Even at 75, no one is going to push that button
How about you guys reduce it to 60 base? MAYBE at 45 I might be SLIGHTLY tempted.

• Aristocratic:
  • ‘Noble Knights’ now gives -20% Cavalry Cost instead of 10% and +15% Cavalry Combat Ability instead of 10%.
  • 'Serfdom':
    • National manpower modifier now giving +15% instead of +33%.
    • Adding -5% Development Cost.
  • 'International Diplomacy': Replacing +1 Free Leader Pool for -25% General Cost.
  • ‘Noble Connections’ now increases mercenary manpower by 25% instead of 20%.

Aristocratic has been bad for so long, I'm glad to see Noble Knights getting these significant buffs.
I do see that Serfdom is getting a nerf (with a compensation buff attached) but considering that Quantity is getting massacred; this seems correct.
Cheaper Generals for Fishing or Army Professionalism is pretty great too.

• Divine:
  • 'Martyrs' now gives +20% Manpower in True Faith Provinces instead of +15% Global Manpower modifier..
  • 'Servants of God' now gives -5% Development cost.

• Horde:
  • 'Horse-lords of the Steppes' now also gives +10% Cavalry to Infantry ratio.
  • Bonus now also gives +10% Tribes Loyalty Equilibrium.

Honestly, This just feels like a correct and appropriate correction, love it!

• Indigenous Ideas:
  • ‘Controlled Burns’ from Indigenous Ideas gives now +15% National Manpower Modifier instead of +20%

More of a global manpower correction

• Plutocratic:
  • 'Tradition of Payment'
    • Replacing +10% Mercenary Manpower for -20% Mercenary Cost.
    • Mercenary Discipline now gives +5% instead of +2.5%.
  • 'Free Cities' now also gives -5% Development Cost.

Seriously, all these minor development cost reduction that you've spread out across the ideas are making Economic ideas even worse. You couldn't give Economy Ideas +5% Tax (15% Total) to along with the massive nerf?

Also, interesting that Kingdoms are more likely to have higher Manpower; but they get a Mercenary Manpower Boost... while Republics that are more likely to have higher Gold gets a Mercenary Cost reduction. I guess its one of those "Strengthening Strengths" that promote more diverse gameplay.

• Naval Ideas:
  • ‘Naval Glory’ now also gives +1 Impact on Siege.
  • ‘Oak Forests for Ships’ now also gives +10% Ship Durability.
  • Bonus now gives -100% Naval Barrage Cost instead of +10% Ship Durability.

WOAH! HOLY WOAH! You guys did it! You finally did it! You made Naval Ideas usable in extremely specific scenarios! All it took was +4 to Sieges of Coastal Forts. I'm honestly excited to try a minor coastal power and take on Spain, Portugal, and England with these new Naval Ideas.

• Offensive Ideas:
  • ‘Grand Army’ now gives +10% Special Unit Force Limit and +15% Land Force Limit Modifier instead of 20% Land Force Limit Modifier.

Honestly, this is an awesome effect, but I am very confused as to why it didn't go to Quality Ideas. Special Units are generally meant to represent the country's supreme best units. Tho I understand that this is in part towards the idea of nerfing Force Limits and Manpower. So, I do like the change overall, but Offensive already being one of the better Ideas, could have just been nerfed and been fine.

• Quality Ideas:
  • ‘Quality Education’ now also gives +0.5 Navy Tradition.

Solid minor buff. I could have also seen Quality Education providing Special Unit Force Limit increase, and having Corvettes provide the 0.5 Navy Tradition.
Because let's be honest at the moment Corvettes is a garbage Idea
Let's compare Corvettes with Oak Forest (from Naval)

Corvettes = 5% Ship Durability
Oak Forests = 10% Ship Durability + 20% Heavy Ship Combat Ability

I'm not saying Corvettes should be better than Oak Forests, but I am saying Corvettes is a garbage waste of a Feat that should be looked at.

• Quantity:
  • 'Levée en Masse' now gives +25% National Manpower modifier instead of 50%.
  • Bonus now gives +25% Land Force Limit Modifier instead of +50%.

Oh... Oh my... That's straight up butchered!
I always wondered when this absolutely monstrously powerful idea group would get reduced; and here it is. The funny part is, even with this massacre; I think that Quantity is still usable. It's still fine. That just shows how insanely far ahead it was.

Policies:

• Economic - Quantity:
  • No longer gives -10% Development Cost, instead it gives -10% Land Maintenance Modifier.

Cheaper units when you have significantly less units, and once again its another Economic nerf. Seriously, you guys should consider making the capstone for Economic be something else.
Well, would I spend an Admin Point each month for -10% Land Maint and 10% Force Limit... It's close... I'm leaning towards No, but considering the other nerfs to Force Limit; its getting close a maybe.

• Innovative - Quality:
  • Now gives Infantry Combat Ability +15% instead of +10%.

A long long time ago, This used to give 20% Combat Ability. People thought this was the only reason Innovative ideas were even usable and even with this being at 20% it was still unpopular... Then a Streamer in a big tournament chose this with Prussia; and was beating people so harshly in the Tournament that they did a hotfix unannounced nerf 5%
A little while later they 'fixed' this to 10%, but it was already too late... The Idea groups people already thought were kinda bad, just became cemented into being awful...
Now we see it being almost reverted to its original as it reaches 15%...

• Aristocratic - Espionage:
  • Now gives Cavalry Combat Ability +15% instead of +10%, and +10% Noble Estate Loyalty Equilibrium.

I'll say it again, people sleeping on Espionage, but overall this is a fun change. This combo seems really fun to play.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Basically, Diplomatic is looking worse and worse.

It should remain very questionable as a choice in MP, and one of the top tier SP world conquest groups. -score cost of provinces is very impactful, and it adds lots of other useful things too (actually annexing subjects in timely fashion, alliance spamming, fast improvement to delay coalition in particular region, high AE burn). IMO these still outcompete espionage.

Espionage is interesting combined with diplomatic, though. That's a ton of diplomats, it might be somewhat plausible to ally-feed allies to just under 100 dev and then diplo vassal them while mostly disregarding economic base modifier. Currently you can get something like this:

Ally: +10
Marriage: +10
Trust: +10 (at 100)
Rank: +10 or +20 for player kingdom or empire, if target is duchy
Military power: +20

This sums to +70 right now. Each positive point of diprep adds another +3, so you can stack legitimacy + diplomatic + statesman + religion to get at least 5 for +15. Another +15 from espionage implies ~80-100 for duchy allies, depending on if the player is kingdom and how much trust is accrued. Economic base caps at -90 (before -1000 for 100+ dev). A player kingdom with a 99 dev ally duchy can thus diplovassal at 100 trust and +5 diprep with espionage. This makes some assumptions (player and target are monarchies, same religion, player has sufficient military strength to get full +20), but it's still interesting considering that noble integration policy nukes the diprep hit from annexing subjects and you'll have a ton of relations slots by combining strong duchies + diplomatic.

If you get to +8 diprep or empire rank, you can overcome the -10 from same religious group (you will always have at least a little bit better than -90 economic base). If you get both, you can diplovassal any religious group duchy < 100 dev, assuming you can marry them.

I don't think that will outperform pure brute forcing through AE the moment such becomes practical, but it might be a nice complement. The usual admin/diplo/influence with one of humanist/religious offers stiff competition, but I will want to try this at least once with some diprep stacking.

 

[DaBombXXX]

Oh... Oh my... That's straight up butchered!
I always wondered when this absolutely monstrously powerful idea group would get reduced; and here it is. The funny part is, even with this massacre; I think that Quantity is still usable. It's still fine. That just shows how insanely far ahead it was.

I don't necessarily agree with this, I think it was way overnerfed. Taking way it's best policy and straight up halving the main points of the idea without modifying anything else is a massive change for the worse. In the new state, I think I would take Offensive over Quantity in just about every scenario.

Edit: Strongly agree with pretty much all your other points, however.

 

[KRBLACK]

Aristocratic ideas are actually going to be really good.
General cost is a great modifier to stack as it grants nearly infinite manpower at some point.

This makes the nerf to slacken recruitment semi-redundant.

If you want you can go all-out and stack:
-25% noble privilege
-25% aristocratic
-20% divine
-10% monarchy reform
-10% innovativeness

This gives 5 MIL generals. 25 MIL for 12 months of manpower (and an absurd amount of possible general rolls )

Also dont sleep on the economic-quantity policy. There is a reason all land maintenance ideas were nerfed...
If the wiki is to be believed, you can actually reduce unit upkeep to 0 (or go negative) as land maintenance does not have a cap in the wiki formula.

Mantua into Prussia here we come....

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

I don't necessarily agree with this, I think it was way overnerfed. Taking way it's best policy and straight up halving the main points of the idea without modifying anything else is a massive change for the worse. In the new state, I think I would take Offensive over Quantity in just about every scenario.

Edit: Strongly agree with pretty much all your other points, however.

33% manpower and force limit for quantity was good middle ground, don't know why they reduced it even further. Quantity is now same tier with defensive, while they should have buffed defensive to give a alternative choice. Heck some nations have national ideas with more manpower, how about nerfing those? Also the quantity/economic policy should have retained it's dev cost, otherwise besides dev cost and inflation reduction there is no worthwhile ideas in economic.

 

[Jiben]

Economy Ideas are barely playable

Now do not get me wrong it might be a overnerf and it could maybe go to 15% instead but to call them barely playable is abit much.

Sure if you go for super wide gameplay such as reforming rome you are unlikely to pick up economic but it's super strong if you play tall and it's also semi mandatory for mp as you are unlikely to expand to 10000 dev and money matters there while in sp you eventually hit a wall where you get "too much" to spend.

 

[Less2]

Econ is the easiest way to win the game (defined as becoming the strongest nation). I could train a monkey to play "tall".

 

[iClipse]

I don't necessarily agree with this, I think it was way overnerfed. Taking way it's best policy and straight up halving the main points of the idea without modifying anything else is a massive change for the worse. In the new state, I think I would take Offensive over Quantity in just about every scenario.

Edit: Strongly agree with pretty much all your other points, however.

I feel like the best policies with Quantity are: +10% Morale, or +20% Goods produced. And these are kept the same.

Stacking dev cost modifiers has never been that powerful for single player, and you can now achieve better results in single provinces with more -dev cost modifiers spread out and -25% from centralize state (which will be huge for institution deving).

It's weird that centralize state does not have a wiki page though.

 

[petertju]

Aristocratic ideas are actually going to be really good.
General cost is a great modifier to stack as it grants nearly infinite manpower at some point.

This makes the nerf to slacken recruitment semi-redundant.

If you want you can go all-out and stack:
-25% noble privilege
-25% aristocratic
-20% divine
-10% monarchy reform
-10% innovativeness

This gives 5 MIL generals. 25 MIL for 12 months of manpower (and an absurd amount of possible general rolls )

Also dont sleep on the economic-quantity policy. There is a reason all land maintenance ideas were nerfed...
If the wiki is to be believed, you can actually reduce unit upkeep to 0 (or go negative) as land maintenance does not have a cap in the wiki formula.

Mantua into Prussia here we come....

Isn't there also a nerf to slacken recruitment coming in the next patch/

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

I do think theres a way to recover economic ideas for a future patch though, even with the super-heavy hammering its recieving. Removing or reducing the inflation gathered from accepting large sums of money and bouncing bankruptcy loan inflation as a capstone would help mitigate some of the economy ruining influxes ontop of everything else the ideagroup is meant to control, and make bankrupting strategies more refined.

To OP, i think your assessment of ideas is solid.

 

[diegosimeone]

I love Espionage ideas and now I'm loving it even more.

 

[annulen]

I do think theres a way to recover economic ideas for a future patch though, even with the super-heavy hammering its recieving. Removing or reducing the inflation gathered from accepting large sums of money and bouncing bankruptcy loan inflation as a capstone would help mitigate some of the economy ruining influxes ontop of everything else the ideagroup is meant to control, and make bankrupting strategies more refined.

These buffs are very much relevant for MP (thus making inflation and bankruptcy even more of a joke then they are now, as anyone will still be taking Economic as one of first picks), but are not really necessary for SP where you can go without loans most of the time. I think for a good balance it needs some buff which would be useful more useful for SP than for MP.

 

[Baswow]

Kind of feel like everyone saying: 'economic is bad for single player so now nobody is going to pick it anymore'. Whereas economic was 90% (if not more) the first non-military idea group in multiplayer. With the reduction in dev cost from quantity-economics and economics it has to be seen whether it still is, but it still has some very strong policies (discipline with quality for example, giving 10% disc when both are finished). So economic is probably still very viable in multiplayer

 

[annulen]

Kind of feel like everyone saying: 'economic is bad for single player so now nobody is going to pick it anymore'

It's still one of the best groups for playing tall. It was unnecessary for playing wide, and remains the same.

 

[iClipse]

Thanks for opening up the discussion about the ideaset changes. I feel with the balance changes a lot of choices that are now considered meta are getting changed/rearranged. My thoughts:

Economic:
Economic still gives -10% dev cost that you get on top of everything else. I agree for SP economic is not a good group to take, but the changes don't change a lot for SP (unless you're playing with development expanded mod). The thing that make economic still worth picking are the policies. The 5% discipline is still there. The 10% ACA is still there. And because army quality will be more important again, I think economic will still be a meta pick, just not to combine it with quantity ideas anymore. Even in single player, it keeps its -5% CCR with Divine ideas, so it might still be worth it. Also -10 land maintenance is pretty powerful tbh. Army is usually your biggest expense.
I do agree it could use something extra with regards to your actual economy, because currently economy is the last reason why you'd pick economic ideas, which is kind of ironic.

Quality:
I'll reserve judgement on this. Since army quality is getting more important again, quality ideas might be a solid pick again. Especially if you're going religious rather than humanist (+10% siege ability policy). The added navy tradition is a nice thing to get.

Spy ideas:
They'll be top tier, at least for SP. There is usually space to pick 2-3 diplo ideasets anyway, so I'm guessing diplo + spy ideas will become meta for any kind of WC run.

Aristocratic:
With the changes to quantity ideas and aristocratic getting buffed, I'm actually inclined to try them out now. Never saw anything in the ideaset that actually made me pick it before now. The manpower boost is akin to quantity ideas now, but you also get cav combat ability and some other hard-to-get-in-other-places goodies, like a diplomat and a siege pip. You can probably delay diplo ideas a lot now since the +2 diplomats can be gained by spy + aristocratic ideas, and you get e great policy as well.

Innovative:
I'm on the fence about them. To me they always feel like a fun group, but not actually all that impactful. The free policies is incredibly powerful, but only powerful by mid-to lategame. It does allow some crazy planning beforehand where you pick your ideasets only to get a 2 useable policies on adm/diplo/mil each. How many ideagroups do we need for that, and what would be some decent combinations? Picking innovative ideas for that seems probably overkill, as when the policies are actually that great, you can just as well just pay the 1 MP/month for it. Still, it gets the brain juices flowing, and that's what I like about the ideaset. And indeed, let's not forget that with the improved policies innovative might be worth picking anyway. +15% ICA is great, but the old policies have some jewels as well: 20% production efficiency is great. 5% goods produced +20% reduced attrition is great (and an admin policy you can use to lever up your military), 1 siege pip +10% siege ability is fantastic, and even stuff like -25% stab cost + 1 diplomat is really helpful (and you can stack some serious low stab costs this way, ideal for trucebreaking).
I always thought innovative ideas would be the best place for some government reform progress growth. Too bad it didn't get it.

Either way, even if innovative ideas isn't worth picking now, it'll be a lot closer to other picks than it was in the past.