Idea Groups according to Quill18

[Meneth]

Again, i can not see what is so good about Offencive. Defencive is definitely better for underdogs since it makes it so much harder, slower and more costly to goble you up, while offencive gives you only a slight edge. If you fight a lot of wars, leader bonus is irrelevant since you will get same maximim quality leaders. Forced march and manuver require you to actually win battles in the first place. Prestige bonus is useless unless you can fight a lot of wars, and actually win them, but then, it largely makes leaderquality bonuses irrelevant ue to high military tradition.

So really:
-weak treatened nation=pick defencive, and grow stronger while your evil enemy goes for someone else or drains so much resources taking your land, somebody eles will backstab him.
-Strong power that needs a bit of extra punch but will only take one military idea? Quality or Aristocracy is for you, since Quality is the most powerfull single idea, and will help with navy, and Aristocracy will help you with diplomacy and will make you less of a preferable expancion target due to core cost.
-weak in manpower nation= get admin ideas to boost the merks, and invest into military tech.
-military focused= get aristocracy, since it is powerfull early(cavalry) and will give you extra full military NI group over time.

Offencive is only good as second military NI.

Why do you assume 6/6 leaders are easy to get? Has there been anything to indicate that it is?
25% manpower and force limits is great for any nation, especially those starved for force limit for one reason or another. 10% discipline is also great.
I do agree that Offensive is worse than Quality. I do not agree it's worse than Aristocracy though; the choice between those two is very much situational.
Defensive mostly won't actually help you win battles, nor does it give you more manpower or force limits, so that again is very much situational.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Poland first NI group should be aristocratic. -20% cavalry cost and -33% cavalry cost equals -53% cavalry cost. which makes it cheaper than infantry, which allows you, early on, to use cavalry-only armies, and so, make them battering ram on the battlefield. As all good players know, only cavalry armies, beat infantry-cavalry armies early on, so ability to upkeep big cavalry-only armies, is quite powerfull.

Also, aristocratic NI's give you +1 leader shock too, just later than offensive ideas. Anyway i would rather take offensive NI group, as second, and have those two stacked for -53% cavalry cost, and +2 leader shock - at that tech it would be realy OP. Aspecialy if you formed the commonwealth - the you would simply steamroll everyone, and if you will get the new cavalry type with it - you will just trample every army for long time. Aspecialy if you get the winged hussars, and the bonus for having all aristocratic NI's fast enough.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Poland first NI group should be aristocratic. -20% cavalry cost and -33% cavalry cost equals -53% cavalry cost. which makes it cheaper than infantry, which allows you, early on, to use cavalry-only armies, and so, make them battering ram on the battlefield. As all good players know, only cavalry armies, beat infantry-cavalry armies early on, so ability to upkeep big cavalry-only armies, is quite powerfull.

Also, aristocratic NI's give you +1 leader shock too, just later than offensive ideas. Anyway i would rather take offensive NI group, as second, and have those two stacked for -53% cavalry cost, and +2 leader shock - at that tech it would be realy OP. Aspecialy if you formed the commonwealth - the you would simply steamroll everyone, and if you will get the new cavalry type with it - you will just trample every army for long time. Aspecialy if you get the winged hussars, and the bonus for having all aristocratic NI's fast enough.

If you use all cavs, you lose the combined arms bonus.

 

[ABookshelf]

Can't wait for some +75% Prussian infantry...

Feel like idea groups should have some more unique completion bonuses...like completing offensive gives you a new military action that could open up new war strategies, but completing trade just gives you +1 merchants, the exact same as 2 previous ideas. Although if you look at it from a perspective that completing the tree has given you a huge overall edge in a certain aspect, it's not so much of a problem.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

If you use all cavs, you lose the combined arms bonus.

Combined arms is not important till fire-arms oriented infantry comes in(Maurician infantry, Tercio, Free Shooters). At least it is so for Eu3, idk for Eu4, but i assume it is as i say. Mostly what is important, are dots of unit, so as long as you have good enough cavalry, cavalry-only armies, beat infantry cavarly till the said units comes up.

I did test for eu3, believe me it is so. Unless Eu4 changes that, which i doubt - it is very good idea to make cavalry-only armies up until you get firearms. We could ask quill to make test for us, i think it is pretty easy to check.

 

[1alexey]

Why do you assume 6/6 leaders are easy to get? Has there been anything to indicate that it is?

Yes, military tradition getting rate.

25% manpower and force limits is great for any nation, especially those starved for force limit for one reason or another. 10% discipline is also great.

Exept you can lack money, and province supply limit can make you number only kick you back with even more need to replace cassualties, which in EU4 costs gold. While quality gives you better army without the need for stronger economy.

I do agree that Offensive is worse than Quality. I do not agree it's worse than Aristocracy though; the choice between those two is very much situational.

Indeed, Offencive is a better later-game second-pick idea if you already picked quality and need more, while Aristocracy is better as first military idea, that is picked early.

Defensive mostly won't actually help you win battles, nor does it give you more manpower or force limits, so that again is very much situational.

Attrition and forcing enemy to stay in your land longer will win you wars. It gives you a very essential morale boost and that actually helps you win battles quite a lot, also reinforcement bonus will give you the ability to reingage again much quicker.
Also you get bonus decreasing your attrition and you will siege faster, which, overally woul give you a critical advantage in manpower sustainability.

Poland first NI group should be aristocratic. -20% cavalry cost and -33% cavalry cost equals -53% cavalry cost. which makes it cheaper than infantry, which allows you, early on, to use cavalry-only armies, and so, make them battering ram on the battlefield. As all good players know, only cavalry armies, beat infantry-cavalry armies early on, so ability to upkeep big cavalry-only armies, is quite powerfull.

Well, Poland starts big and pretty-much unchallenged initially anyway. Better to take some other idea, like religion for better conversion and stability.

 

[pieGEEK]

For the Western Tech Group, I think you gain 3 points a month naturally in all categories, from 1444 to 1821, thats around 4500 points minimum. That is barely worth two idea groups per power type, and thats not counting all the various expenses that will derail you or focus on other things. Seems like a tough choice, you'll have to be weak in some area, thats what the games is saying.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Well, Poland starts big and pretty-much unchallenged initially anyway. Better to take some other idea, like religion for better conversion and stability.

I don't agree - you will need strong army as poland, as you don't start with PU on lithuania, and there is a big chance you will not get it - you will need strong army if it happens, to claim some land. I wouldn't say it is unchallenged, it got many threats, even lithuania itself MAY change into threat, and then you got a problem. Also you got hungary on south, bohemia on west, and teutonic order on north. It is nowhere near safe, or unchallenged in 1444.

Having big, strong and cheap army, is good thing. And this will help you to keep up with the economy too - since people won't just go and invade you if you got strong army. And if they do, they will quickly be dealt with.

Moscow is also a threat - it starts with roughly same army size as lithuania, and some pretty decent generals. So it is good to be prepared. It is in much stronger position than in 1399.

Saying poland is unchallenged is pretty much stiupid talk.

 

[1alexey]

For the Western Tech Group, I think you gain 3 points a month naturally in all categories, from 1444 to 1821, thats around 4500 points minimum. That is barely worth two idea groups per power type, and thats not counting all the various expenses that will derail you or focus on other things. Seems like a tough choice, you'll have to be weak in some area, thats what the games is saying.

1821-1444= 377(years).
377*12= 4524(month)
4524*3=13572 minimum guaranteed number of points in each category for western goverment.
You made an error somewhere.

I don't agree - you will need strong army as poland, as you don't start with PU on lithuania, and there is a big chance you will not get it - you will need strong army if it happens, to claim some land. I wouldn't say it is unchallenged, it got many threats, even lithuania itself MAY change into threat, and then you got a problem. Also you got hungary on south, bohemia on west, and teutonic order on north. It is nowhere near safe, or unchallenged in 1444.

Having big, strong and cheap army, is good thing. And this will help you to keep up with the economy too - since people won't just go and invade you if you got strong army. And if they do, they will quickly be dealt with.

Moscow is also a threat - it starts with roughly same army size as lithuania, and some pretty decent generals. So it is good to be prepared. It is in much stronger position than in 1399.

Saying poland is unchallenged is pretty much stiupid talk.

Still, Poland can deal with it, with military avialable. The non-converted ortodox and sunni provinces you would end up with, would be a pain though. So would be your starting eastern tech group, and the relativly fast decline of cavalry power. Arround 1550 or so, considering you would have to invest more than usuall to stability, even your cheap cavalry will start to loose to better tech and strong infantry-artillery of west.

You do need stability, both to not fall far behind in adm tech, and to westernise. Religious group does give you that.

 

[Meneth]

Yes, military tradition getting rate.

Which gives you better generals on average. Which does not necessarily mean at all that 6/6 generals are easy to get, nor that max military tradition is easy to get (it decays 5% each year by default after all) and maintain.

Exept you can lack money, and province supply limit can make you number only kick you back with even more need to replace cassualties, which in EU4 costs gold. While quality gives you better army without the need for stronger economy.

I'm not arguing that Offensive is better than Quality though. I'm arguing it is equally as good as Aristocracy, just that it's situational.

Indeed, Offencive is a better later-game second-pick idea if you already picked quality and need more, while Aristocracy is better as first military idea, that is picked early.

Glad we agree then.

Attrition and forcing enemy to stay in your land longer will win you wars. It gives you a very essential morale boost and that actually helps you win battles quite a lot, also reinforcement bonus will give you the ability to reingage again much quicker.
Also you get bonus decreasing your attrition and you will siege faster, which, overally woul give you a critical advantage in manpower sustainability.

It helps, but it doesn't help much if you're heavily outnumbered, or don't actually have the manpower to utilize that improved reinforcement rate. Offensive on the other hand helps with both those issues.
Much like Offensive vs. Aristocracy, Offensive vs. Defensive is not clear cut either way, but is very much situational.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

you forget, game starts in 1444.11.11 - which means you only got 2 month from first year. So 13542 not 13572

 

[1alexey]

Which gives you better generals on average. Which does not necessarily mean at all that 6/6 generals are easy to get, nor that max military tradition is easy to get (it decays 5% each year by default after all) and maintain.

However, +1 to general is not that decicive. And you do recruit generals, and then your tradition decay is not important untill you need to hire new one.

It helps, but it doesn't help much if you're heavily outnumbered, or don't actually have the manpower to utilize that improved reinforcement rate. Offensive on the other hand helps with both those issues.
Much like Offensive vs. Aristocracy, Offensive vs. Defensive is not clear cut either way, but is very much situational.

On contrary. Offencive will not help you if you`re heavilly outnumbered, since it gives you at best 20-30% boost compared to what you would be without.

Defencive allows you to drain enemy manpower first, and provides a decent bonus to actuall combat still. So, if you`re heavilly outnumbered, defencive will help you more, but it is not all-powerfull, while offencive is actually better if you are of comparable strengt or stronger.

you forget, game starts in 1444.11.11 - which means you only got 2 month from first year. So 13542 not 13572

I stay corrected

 

[Xerxes 8933A]

For a naval, trading colonizer like Britain or Portugal Quality looks nice, and so does Espionage(in a multiplayer game). But the only Diplomatic idea that's even a question of getting or not is the "Diplomatic idea". That one set of ideas increases your economy and military. However, for a land based nation like France or Germany the Administration set increases your economy, the Military set your military. So land based nations will have stronger, more well rounded nations then naval ones as they will be able to increase all aspects of their nation at the same time.

 

[1alexey]

For a naval, trading colonizer like Britain or Portugal Quality looks nice, and so does Espionage(in a multiplayer game). But the only Diplomatic idea that's even a question of getting or not is the "Diplomatic idea". That one set of ideas increases your economy and military. However, for a land based nation like France or Germany the Administration set increases your economy, the Military set your military. So land based nations will have stronger, more well rounded nations then naval ones as they will be able to increase all aspects of their nation at the same time.

Diplomatic is for land expanders, like Russia, Prussia, Ottomans. It has "cheap warmongering" writen all over it.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

For the Western Tech Group, I think you gain 3 points a month naturally in all categories, from 1444 to 1821, thats around 4500 points minimum. That is barely worth two idea groups per power type, and thats not counting all the various expenses that will derail you or focus on other things. Seems like a tough choice, you'll have to be weak in some area, thats what the games is saying.

It's a good thing you'll also get 3 more on average because of your ruler and at least 1 more (2 or 3 more in later game) for advisors. So say average of 3+3+2=8 points per month. 8*377*12=~36k points per category, or 108k total. Picking up 8 idea groups costs ~17k points TOTAL, with 300 base cost, so you only use up around 1/6 of your points for the idea groups.

Also: there are apparently 33 techs in each category, and Western Europe starts at 3, so with 400 base cost, you'd have to spend 400*90=36k points. So you have about half of your points to max out your ideas and tech, and half to do everything else. We'll soon see if that's enough.

 

[Meneth]

It's a good thing you'll also get 3 more on average because of your ruler and at least 1 more (2 or 3 more in later game) for advisors. So say average of 3+3+2=8 points per month. 8*377*12=~36k points per category, or 108k total. Picking up 8 idea groups costs ~17k points TOTAL, with 300 base cost, so you only use up around 1/6 of your points for the idea groups.

Also: there are apparently 33 techs in each category, and Western Europe starts at 3, so with 400 base cost, you'd have to spend 400*90=36k points. So you have about half of your points to max out your ideas and tech, and half to do everything else. We'll soon see if that's enough.

Isn't the base tech cost 800, not 400?

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Isn't the base tech cost 800, not 400?

400 is what the wiki says, but I guess quill's videos showed 800, which then only leaves you with 16% extra points...

 

[Haresus]

Republics really should go for Plutocracy first. That 10% cheaper tech will be extraordinarily useful and pay for the entire Idea Group several times over. If you want to be a complete technocrat, Innovative will be the obvious next choice. 15% cheaper technology. You save 120 monarch points for every technology you advance in, and since there are 20+ technologies in every category... You will save over 7200 monarch points by going for Plutocracy/Innovative early on. If there are any non-western republics, this could be the perfect way to keep up with western technology.

You will also get more and cheaper mercenaries, much cheaper advisors (Even more monarch points!) and a bunch of other various bonuses.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Republics really should go for Plutocracy first. That 10% cheaper tech will be extraordinarily useful and pay for the entire Idea Group several times over. If you want to be a complete technocrat, Innovative will be the obvious next choice. 15% cheaper technology. You save 120 monarch points for every technology you advance in, and since there are 20+ technologies in every category... You will save over 7200 monarch points by going for Plutocracy/Innovative early on. If there are any non-western republics, this could be the perfect way to keep up with western technology.

You will also get more and cheaper mercenaries, much cheaper advisors (Even more monarch points!) and a bunch of other various bonuses.

According to the very very early Tech dev diary, there are 33 techs in each category.

 

[Haresus]

According to the very very early Tech dev diary, there are 33 techs in each category.

You start at tech level 3, have both idea groups unlocked on tech level 7 and then there are 26 technologies left in administration. I guess you will be at the same tech level in military and diplomacy. So if you completely stop doing any technological breakthroughs until your Idea Groups are finished, which would be a risky and perhaps even stupid tactic, you could save 9360 monarch points.

That is pretty unreasonable and not likely to happen, but it is, in theory, possible.