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yerm

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STOP CUTTING RELIGIOUS OFF WHEN YOU QUOTE SOMEONE AND REMOVE THE QUOTE

Thanks <3

Religious: 13
Economic: 16
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Diplomatic: 2
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


As before, humanist down. This is not an idea group that helps you expand, it is a crutch to help reduce unrest or get more out of off-culture and off-religion. May as well just take economic; it'll give you more internal bonuses long term, and with ticking -LA just raise it initially to deal with unrest if needed. Or just deal with occasional rebels. If you're having unity problems, try dumping into vassals, although with influence at 12 maybe the majority of the voting base just hates playing with vassals? I colored it yellow again, because it is still an idea group for cowards too scared to put down rebels or deal with unrest the strong way.

Religious up again. Too many people are looking at religious as some kind of conversion tool with a good CB. It's an amazing CB that should probably be the 3rd best MP saver (after admin and inf) given how absurdly much dip everything takes now... that happens to have some soft bonuses to conversion and ttf after it. Religious helps you expand, saves you MPs, and then gives you some handy events and ideas that are icing.

Basically, if you're expanding heavily, it helps you. If you are in a contained MP game, its military policies are top notch. If you feed vassals, the benefits of humanists almost vanish, while religious saves scores of dip you'll need to then eat them. Humanism is a crutch. Idea cost reduction is about the lowest MP saver that exists; more money early for advisors probably "saves" more. Religious is the way. God wills it.
 

saegoto

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Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Diplomatic: 2 eliminated
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


diplo is not so great. time to take 10 place.
economic cuz has good policies, gives money, infaltion reduction, LA reduction and ofc dev cost
 

Montem

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Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Diplomatic: 2 eliminated
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


diplo is not so great. time to take 10 place.
economic cuz has good policies, gives money, infaltion reduction, LA reduction and ofc dev cost
Actually Dip was at 4, not 2. Dip should have 2 left (the last person who added subtracted on accident)
 

yerm

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Actually Dip was at 4, not 2. Dip should have 2 left (the last person who added subtracted on accident)

I think he did it as a correction. I know mistakes happen, but the guy who said he tallies all votes in a spreadsheet screwing up the one he wants to be higher, seems less likely.
 

Nightwing

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so what is the situation?

As things stand, the tally is:

Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage
 

Merrivale

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RIP Diplomatic, voted out at 268 with 16 up votes and 18 down votes. And perhaps, although this maybe slightly sour grapes, a victim of the religious/humanist war when they saw an idea dropping they could get out first? :)
 
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Merrivale

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As things stand, the tally is:

Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

This is not correct.

Correct tally:

Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 18
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage
 
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TheDungen

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STOP CUTTING RELIGIOUS OFF WHEN YOU QUOTE SOMEONE AND REMOVE THE QUOTE

Thanks <3

Religious: 13
Economic: 16
Administrative: 18
Humanist: 7
Diplomatic: 2
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 20
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


As before, humanist down. This is not an idea group that helps you expand, it is a crutch to help reduce unrest or get more out of off-culture and off-religion. May as well just take economic; it'll give you more internal bonuses long term, and with ticking -LA just raise it initially to deal with unrest if needed. Or just deal with occasional rebels. If you're having unity problems, try dumping into vassals, although with influence at 12 maybe the majority of the voting base just hates playing with vassals? I colored it yellow again, because it is still an idea group for cowards too scared to put down rebels or deal with unrest the strong way.

Religious up again. Too many people are looking at religious as some kind of conversion tool with a good CB. It's an amazing CB that should probably be the 3rd best MP saver (after admin and inf) given how absurdly much dip everything takes now... that happens to have some soft bonuses to conversion and ttf after it. Religious helps you expand, saves you MPs, and then gives you some handy events and ideas that are icing.

Basically, if you're expanding heavily, it helps you. If you are in a contained MP game, its military policies are top notch. If you feed vassals, the benefits of humanists almost vanish, while religious saves scores of dip you'll need to then eat them. Humanism is a crutch. Idea cost reduction is about the lowest MP saver that exists; more money early for advisors probably "saves" more. Religious is the way. God wills it.
Who says that the goal is to expand? Blobbing is easier than staying small.
 

yerm

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Who says that the goal is to expand? Blobbing is easier than staying small.

That's the problem. If you are deliberately staying small, there's nothing at all wrong with that, whether it's because you're in a competitive MP game, playing tall, or house ruling expansion. All are fine.

The problem is that humanist is no longer all that useful. Reducing unrest and accepting cultures is no longer all that amazing when you aren't churning in tons of new land that needs to be converted, or dealing with the routine overextension and probably as much war exhaustion hiking up troubled areas. A small and contained empire should have less problems staying stable, and therefore less need of humanist to help this.

Humanist has its uses, don't get me wrong, it's not worthless by any stretch, but that use is IMO even more limited than exploration. Further, when you need exploration you must take it no substitute, while when humanist is the best pick in a situation (eg a pure -core stacking conquest spree) you can still live without it.

Basically what I'm saying is that when you're not rapidly expanding I don't see why it's needed. When you are rapidly expanding, it uses admin points without heavy point saving in return, so if you can live without it I think you should. Using vassals can mitigate so much of what humanist does, and taking religious saves you the dip you'll then need to eat said vassals. Hence my voting!
 

Poncy Git

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Religious: 13
Economic: 17
Administrative: 19 (18+1)
Humanist: 5 (7-2)
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 18
Defensive: 8
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Administrative = Mandatory post 1.12
Humanist = A crutch for weak players unable to deal with unrest and rebellion, with few niche uses involving countries with NIs that pair well with it.
 

Rooz

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Religious: 14 (+1)
Economic: 17
Administrative: 19
Humanist: 5
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 18
Defensive: 6 (-2)
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


My third vote; Religious is still the best idea out there; Defensive has only 2 decent ideas - morale and army tradition. The rest is just meh. Very situational.
 

stoneboy0

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Religious: 14
Economic: 17
Administrative: 17
Humanist: 5
Exploration: 11
Influence: 12
Offensive: 18
Defensive: 7
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Third vote! Gotta keep defensive alive a bit longer; I find all of its ideas useful except the leader maneuver ( I get enough 90 tradition 1/1/6/0 generals as it is). Administrative, while useful, has too much filler to keep alive.
 

Toshiro mifune

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Religious: 14
Economic: 17
Administrative: 19 (-1)
Humanist: 5
Exploration: 12 (+1)
Influence: 12
Offensive: 18
Defensive: 6
Quantity: 16

Eliminated

10. Diplomatic
11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage


Admin was taken down by one, cause all the other ones are better. I do love Admin, but the others are just better.

Exploration is in my opinion The Best idea group. Getting some colonies set up, not to mention a trade company or two, is the simplest way to "win".
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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I see a lot of SP-only players in this thread. Espionage can actually be useful in MP.
 
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