Idea Group Elimination

[Vuohijumala]

Religious 11
Economic: 22
Expansion : 3
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 15
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 24
Influence: 20
Offensive: 23
Defensive: 15
Quality: 4
Quantity: 13

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

As a dirty liberal hippie, I'm going to upvote Humanism.

Seriously speaking, I still find it among the strongest idea groups. Let's imagine someone conquering Sunni provinces with, for example, Portugal. With no ideas, that someone will soon realise being unable to convert the provinces, and also unable to profit much from them, because of intolerance. They'll also generate unrest for eternity. Say he would have Religious = He'll be able to convert the provinces. It still takes time, unrest rises, and profit remains minimal until conversion has completed. But with full Humanism, no further action is required. No need to convert provinces. No negative modifiers to income from intolerance. And even if the provinces have nationalism, rebellions are highly unlikely.

-10% to idea cost is also nice, although tech cost reductions might save more mp. But Humanism also has the Free Freethinkers event (-10% to idea cost also), and it offers a route to Protestantism (with another -10% to idea cost) without any rebellions or maluses.

Quantity down. Not saying it's bad, but it requires larger income to be truly benefited from. Late game cash usually won't be a problem though. But neither will manpower. Also, quantity won't improve troops. Whether to pick quantity is quite situational.

I have to say downvoting is becoming harder and harder. I think the truly bad ideas are gone already. Now it's coming more to differences in playstyle.

 

[Parapluman]

Religious 11
Economic: 22
Expansion : 3
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 15
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 23
Defensive: 15
Quality: 4
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

The +1 was a toss up between religious and quantity. I went with quantity, because of its range. It's just always a good group to have. It's great when you're a small nation with very little manpower or force limit, (its increased force limit even helps with solidifying alliances) It's great even when you are a beast like the ottomans fighting on multiple fronts, expanding in every direction, or even when you're playing a colonizer like Castille with it's +1 colonist policy.

My -2 goes to Exploration for it's lack of range. Exploration is by far the best group if you're a colonizer, but if you're not it's utterly useless.

 

[stoneboy0]

Time to vote again!

Religious 11
Economic: 22
Expansion : 1
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 15
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 23
Defensive: 16
Quality: 4
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

JUST DIE, EXPANSION!

 

[208]

Up on religious due to nice stability and unity within the nation. Faster conversion is also really nice.
Down on humanist (again) as I never found it useful, I rather convert stuff. It's a matter of playstyle I guess.

Using Humanist doesn't mean you don't convert stuff - you convert more slowly, but that's ok because your nation can easily handle some off-religion provinces for a while, with the combination of +Religious Unit and extra tolerance to heretics & heathens.

Down Humanism: Accepted cultures threshold is important early in game, but sooner or later (XVII at most, i tried in my Nepal game, by the time i reach Persia bonus provided by not-my own, but still accepted cultures was abysmal) you won't accept most of your cultures (partially due to cultures divisions in last few patches). Burning MP to hold few more cultures isn't worth

Let me show you a screenshot of the accepted cultures in my latest Ottomans game. Ottomans get a 15% bonus to accepted culture threshold, so this is a rather extreme case, but still it is a good demonstration. Nogai, Uzbek, and Castilian will all likely become accepted when I conquer more territory. When I get to Admin tech 29 (currently at 27) and can become an Enlightened Despot (additional -10% Accepted Culture Threshold), I'll be able to further add Sicilian, Mishar, Gujarati, Kannada, and likely Berber, Bengali, and Teluga (the latter 3 pending further conquests), because my total threshold will be 2%. At the current size of my empire, that's a mere 72 development! My current total of accepted cultures is 55.6% (not counting Turkish or cultural union - another 10.4% and 2.2% ), which will (just going by my current list of culture %'s) go up to roughly 70% with the tech increase & likely conquests. That's roughly a total of 80% of a very large empire that does not have a 33% tax & manpower penalty, nor an extra +2 unrest.

Bulgarian, my smallest accepted culture and an accepted culture since day 1, is at 1.9%. I don't anticipate they will ever become unaccepted, at this rate - once I get that 2% threshold I would have to double the total development value of my empire to cause Bulgarian to drop off the bottom.

Incidentally, this is shortly after I annexed most of Persia (I left them the Afghan parts, dirty extra-coring-cost cultures). The provinces were cored roughly 1.25 years earlier, and conversion of the first provinces from Shia to Sunni is underway. Unrest in the Persian (accepted) areas: -6%. Unrest in the Khorasani (unaccepted): -4%. A mere 6 points (12 years) of separatism remain. I could rack up 100% overextension again and I *might* see one revolt, if the conquest was particularly fast.

+25% Religious unity with Religious you have 9x% whole time. With humanism you will drop below 100% after some time, as most of your land will be heathens.

As I said above, going with Humanist doesn't mean forgoing conversion completely - it gives you a very nice cushion to convert at your leisure, you still want to convert to get better tolerance bonuses. Humanism lets you sit at 100% all the time, if you continue converting, even if you take large chunks of heretic/heathen territory.

 

[Autokrator48]

Religious 12
Economic: 22
Expansion : 1
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 15
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 23
Defensive: 16
Quality: 2
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Up with Religious, one of the single best idea groups in the game, and has great events related to it. Down with Quality.

 

[Disrep]

Religious 12
Economic: 22
Expansion : 1
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 15
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quality: 2
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

+1 to Defensive and -2 to Offensive just because I think Defensive>Offensive after Common Sense.

 

[Parapluman]

Two groups in the danger zone: Who will go first quality or expansion.
Place your bets now.

 

[IceTytanFang]

Two groups in the danger zone: Who will go first quality or expansion.
Place your bets now.

35 euro on expansion!

 

[Oddb@ll]

Using Humanist doesn't mean you don't convert stuff - you convert more slowly, but that's ok because your nation can easily handle some off-religion provinces for a while, with the combination of +Religious Unit and extra tolerance to heretics & heathens.



Let me show you a screenshot of the accepted cultures in my latest Ottomans game. Ottomans get a 15% bonus to accepted culture threshold, so this is a rather extreme case, but still it is a good demonstration. Nogai, Uzbek, and Castilian will all likely become accepted when I conquer more territory. When I get to Admin tech 29 (currently at 27) and can become an Enlightened Despot (additional -10% Accepted Culture Threshold), I'll be able to further add Sicilian, Mishar, Gujarati, Kannada, and likely Berber, Bengali, and Teluga (the latter 3 pending further conquests), because my total threshold will be 2%. At the current size of my empire, that's a mere 72 development! My current total of accepted cultures is 55.6% (not counting Turkish or cultural union - another 10.4% and 2.2% ), which will (just going by my current list of culture %'s) go up to roughly 70% with the tech increase & likely conquests. That's roughly a total of 80% of a very large empire that does not have a 33% tax & manpower penalty, nor an extra +2 unrest.

Bulgarian, my smallest accepted culture and an accepted culture since day 1, is at 1.9%. I don't anticipate they will ever become unaccepted, at this rate - once I get that 2% threshold I would have to double the total development value of my empire to cause Bulgarian to drop off the bottom.

Incidentally, this is shortly after I annexed most of Persia (I left them the Afghan parts, dirty extra-coring-cost cultures). The provinces were cored roughly 1.25 years earlier, and conversion of the first provinces from Shia to Sunni is underway. Unrest in the Persian (accepted) areas: -6%. Unrest in the Khorasani (unaccepted): -4%. A mere 6 points (12 years) of separatism remain. I could rack up 100% overextension again and I *might* see one revolt, if the conquest was particularly fast.



As I said above, going with Humanist doesn't mean forgoing conversion completely - it gives you a very nice cushion to convert at your leisure, you still want to convert to get better tolerance bonuses. Humanism lets you sit at 100% all the time, if you continue converting, even if you take large chunks of heretic/heathen territory.

Meh, I'll still pick religious

 

[Dr.Livingstone]

35 euro on expansion!

Happy to oblige:

Religious 12
Economic: 22
Expansion : 0
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 16
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quality: 2
Quantity: 14

 

[SparowCrow]

Religious 13
Economic: 22
Expansion : 1
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 13
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quality: 2
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

I just never liked Humanist, Why tolerate when you can Convert?

 

[Merrivale]

Again a few errors now, here is the correct tally

Religious 13
Economic: 22
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 14
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 19
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quality: 2
Quantity: 14

12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

RIP Expansion, out at vote 192 with 13 up votes and 17 down votes.

That recent down vote to offensive, incidentally, was it's first down vote. Everything now has at least one. Although offensive also only has three upvotes so far, still less than Plutocratic got.

 

[solidprice]

Religious 13
Economic: 22
Expansion : 0
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 14
Diplomatic: 26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 20
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quality: 0
Quantity: 14

13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Up diplomatic kill quality.
I love you diplomatic. I really do.

Dunno now but pre 1.12 if I couldn't go exploration I would go diplomatic.
Instant diplomat,relationship slot, dip rep, -10% to dip tech cost to have a deeper sink,Take More stuff in Peace deals, best 1st idea for getting a really good 1st and 2nd NI easily.

quality is nice but meh now and ony good as a 2-3rd idea.the furthest i played was 1650. And only SP.
so i never needed many mil ideas . Quantity for extra colonist and moar men is what i needed most.

 

[Merrivale]

And RIP Quality, out at vote 194 with 20 upvotes and 20 downvotes.

 

[Torugu]

Religious 13
Economic: 22
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 14
Diplomatic: 24
Exploration: 22
Influence: 21
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quantity: 14

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Up Influence, down Diplomatic. Diplo got stealth buffed in the last patch by the removal of the Embassy, but Influence is still better in almost every aspect.

 

[gall]

Using Humanist doesn't mean you don't convert stuff - you convert more slowly, but that's ok because your nation can easily handle some off-religion provinces for a while, with the combination of +Religious Unit and extra tolerance to heretics & heathens.



Let me show you a screenshot of the accepted cultures in my latest Ottomans game. Ottomans get a 15% bonus to accepted culture threshold, so this is a rather extreme case, but still it is a good demonstration. Nogai, Uzbek, and Castilian will all likely become accepted when I conquer more territory. When I get to Admin tech 29 (currently at 27) and can become an Enlightened Despot (additional -10% Accepted Culture Threshold), I'll be able to further add Sicilian, Mishar, Gujarati, Kannada, and likely Berber, Bengali, and Teluga (the latter 3 pending further conquests), because my total threshold will be 2%. At the current size of my empire, that's a mere 72 development! My current total of accepted cultures is 55.6% (not counting Turkish or cultural union - another 10.4% and 2.2% ), which will (just going by my current list of culture %'s) go up to roughly 70% with the tech increase & likely conquests. That's roughly a total of 80% of a very large empire that does not have a 33% tax & manpower penalty, nor an extra +2 unrest.

Bulgarian, my smallest accepted culture and an accepted culture since day 1, is at 1.9%. I don't anticipate they will ever become unaccepted, at this rate - once I get that 2% threshold I would have to double the total development value of my empire to cause Bulgarian to drop off the bottom.

Incidentally, this is shortly after I annexed most of Persia (I left them the Afghan parts, dirty extra-coring-cost cultures). The provinces were cored roughly 1.25 years earlier, and conversion of the first provinces from Shia to Sunni is underway. Unrest in the Persian (accepted) areas: -6%. Unrest in the Khorasani (unaccepted): -4%. A mere 6 points (12 years) of separatism remain. I could rack up 100% overextension again and I *might* see one revolt, if the conquest was particularly fast.



As I said above, going with Humanist doesn't mean forgoing conversion completely - it gives you a very nice cushion to convert at your leisure, you still want to convert to get better tolerance bonuses. Humanism lets you sit at 100% all the time, if you continue converting, even if you take large chunks of heretic/heathen territory.

I did mention, that Humanism do stack nicely with some NIs (accepted culture threshold, due to additive stacking). I should include Ottomans, but i weren't playing as them for some time.
I do know, that missionaries do not disappear once you take Humanism. Thanks to having few more accepted cultures conversions are in fact easier. With one missionary and religion like Hindu or Buddhism you still won't convert much land. As Muslim it will be easier, due to two facts: Muslims are most difficult to convert (heretics could be converted by vassals, heathens are now more tricky) and Piety provide you with Missionary strength from the beginning. You also have possibility to claim your self DotF and get one more missionary, perhaps conquer some province (as Ottomans it is easy) to get some more missionaries. Similar can be said about Christians, but theirs (at least initial) missionary strength and resistance to conversions is lower. Still, i find hard to believe you could expand expand quickly and keep up with conversion.
I tried it with Golden Horde (almost no separatism with Humanism, great! Too bad i didn't accept even Russian at the end) Great Khan run at 1.9 or something like that. I used vassals with religious extensively. However i do use my sweat -core cost NI+admin ideas if i lack dip points. Not to mention not converted leftovers from unreliable vassals.
If you are Hindu you could use +Missionary Strength deity, but it don't provide you with additional missionary and conversion speed even for poor Tibetan lands is 24 with all accessible bonuses (except Religious) like decisions trashing tolerance, advisor etc. You can't even dream about touching most of Persian provinces or converted e.g. Delhi.
I do enjoy playing on low legitimacy as Hordes (one pretender won, there goes another, house of peace to initialise a chain) and sometimes other countries as it allow you to pick better monarchs (pretenders). Civil wars are normal element of gameplay giving circumstances (they provide you with few occasions to pick better monarch as well as one or two useful modifiers). Excessive amounts of -unrest from TTF in your core territory come in handy (as for decrease of LA using button).
EDIT: Wow quantity lower than offensive and defensive. Quality out.. Def is "early punch", Quality is "middle-late" killer. Offensive is more balanced. It provides you with good leaders (this +1s) on regular basis contrary to +AT Ideas, which provide you with great leader during war periods and more meh ones before such periods (and more random on the top of that). I would expect Quantity to be loved in poor manpower patch..

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Religious 13
Economic: 22
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 12
Diplomatic: 25
Exploration: 22
Influence: 21
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 17
Quantity: 14

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Up Diplomatic, down Humanist. I use Diplomatic always and somehow never take humanist.

 

[Iferius]

Religious 13
Economic: 20
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 12
Diplomatic: 25
Exploration: 22
Influence: 21
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 18
Quantity: 14

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Economic is overrated - it costs precious admin points. Defensive on the other hand is at least as good as offensive.

 

[lolada]

Can someone enlighten me whats so good about Defensive?

In my book, all of Offensive, Quality and Quantity are significantly better than Defensive.

 

[Gloopgeek]

Religious 13-2=11
Economic: 20
Administrative: 25
Humanist: 12
Diplomatic: 25+1=26
Exploration: 22
Influence: 21
Offensive: 21
Defensive: 18
Quantity: 14

11. Quality
12. Expansion
13. Plutocratic
14. Aristocratic
15. Trade
16. Maritime
17. Innovative
18. Naval
19. Espionage

Diplomatic - useful in almost any situation, and vital especially for europeans/HRE.
Religious - not as useful as it used to be, compared with its main rival humanist; most countries aren't in a position to be converting all that much (although it is necessary for some countries). I don't really want to be using valuable ADM on it unless I have to.