Idea: Global Market Place?

[jesperj13]

I was just playing with the idea of a global market place for old weapons/tanks/planes etc.

Regional and minor powers can go to this tab (perhaps part of the production tab?) to purchase weapons that they cannot produce themselves due to lack of industry or technology. I know Podcat already mentioned that you can send your old weapons to your allies or sell it to other powers. A dedicated tab would make it instantly visible for buyers to see what is on offer, and choose the best/cheapest/most available ones.

I picture this tab to look somewhat like the 'sunken ships tab' in HoI3: a comprehensive table with columns of:
'seller' (a country)-'item' (light tank/interceptor)-'tech level'-'modifications' (additional speed/armour etc.)-'price per unit'-'available units'

After seeing this, you can then go to the country you want to purchase weapons from via the regular 'diplomacy tab' (the way Podcat described) and make your deal.

Any ideas/suggestions?

EDIT: obviously you would also need a mechanism for countries to select which weapons they would want to sell and for what price.

 

[Porkman]

This is a really good idea with a very misleading title.

This is the only way I see equipment selling working... That said, it's going to be hard to figure out the price to sell that would make it worthwhile to sell instead of just keeping them.

 

[SpermCube]

There is no money in the game iirc, so you wont be making mad dosh selling weapons to both parties as Tibet or Bolivia, if such a mechanic was put in.

 

[Silver Viper]

well if i remember correctly, devs have said there will be no money in the game, so i wonder how will trade be done (and also this idea) with no money to pay for it! :-/

 

[1alexey]

This is the only way I see equipment selling working... That said, it's going to be hard to figure out the price to sell that would make it worthwhile to sell instead of just keeping them.

That is, if you have all the resources. If you need the cash to pay for imports, you might be very willing to sell equipment.

Germany was probably one of the most notable arms exporters for profit, but there were others, obviously.

 

[jesperj13]

well if i remember correctly, devs have said there will be no money in the game, so i wonder how will trade be done (and also this idea) with no money to pay for it! :-/

Wow, I completely missed this! I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that countries can obtain weapons from other countries. Did the devs mention how this would work if there is no money? Do you have to trade resources? Or would it be on a lend-lease base/free? The latter would mean you can only trade with your allies. Definitely a missed opportunity in my view.

The USA as economic powerhouse provided (old) weapons to a great number of countries before the war, as many European countries had stopped exporting their arms. I was hoping this would be reflected in the game. After all, this should be perfectly doable since countries build individual weapons rather than divisions.

 

[Chukada]

China bought a lot of equipment.

Please reflect that.

 

[jju_57]

If you look at actual history there was nothing like a global marketplace. Instead countries got into trade agreements and sometimes that involved military hardware. Most of the time you only sold and traded things with friends or potential allies. Many countries were not trading with each other. There was no such thing as a free market.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

Got to agree with jju_57 here, the whole idea of a global market didn't come until after WWII, and really took off in the 1970's. Before this you only traded with countries you trusted or for a specific reason.

To give you an example, the TEU (standard shipping container) didn't come into existence until after WWII. The first TEU standard was actually created by the US military during the latter part of WWII. Without any shipping container standard it is really hard to transport finished materials around the world. You could create a 40 meter container, but the country your delivering to might only have a crane available to lift a 30 meter container, or trucks that can only carry 30 meter container, or rail cars that can't carry it.

This is a very overlooked fact about how the US was able to transport so much material so quickly during WWII, and is the main reason the US is #1 in rail freight transport in the world still.

 

[jesperj13]

If you look at actual history there was nothing like a global marketplace. Instead countries got into trade agreements and sometimes that involved military hardware. Most of the time you only sold and traded things with friends or potential allies. Many countries were not trading with each other. There was no such thing as a free market.

I completely agree with you. My point was not to include this as it would be completely historical, but mainly to make it easier for players to make the most of the fact that it is apparently possible to trade weapons in HoI4.

Weapons trading was not a free market affair, and it is true that most weapons trades were between allies. But for a game mechanic, one has to think about all the countries. Imagine playing (in a sandbox game!) as Argentina. They could either align themselves with the USA or with Germany. It would just be 'easier' (not more historical) to have an overview of German and American weapons on offer. It could even have an impact on which faction Argentina would decide to join.
Another (historical!) example: take the Netherlands. A 'neutral' country that purchased arms from various countries: German rifles, Swedish AA Guns, American planes, German planes etc. etc. Not exactly possible if you would only have an overview of your 'allied' countries.

 

[Kovax]

I hope that HOI4 at least shows the stats of the units AS THEY ARE, and not just show the baseline stats as in HOI3. Depending on what the AI pumped research points into, it might be the bottom of the barrel baseline unit, or might have the latest techs across the board. You didn't know for certain until you built it.

Without money, I'm not sure how you'd trade military equipment other than for generic "Supplies" between a backwater country with no advanced stuff and a major power with the latest and greatest: "I'll trade you 40,000 obsolete rifles from the 1800's for one semi-modern tank", "Why would I want 40,000 useless old rifles?". Essentially, that turns "Supplies" into "currency", in just about all respects except throughput limitations.

 

[wingo]

Minors (excluding countries like Tannu Tuva) should have no problem keeping up in few selected areas if they specialize. This would also have an effect on the majors - why research everything yourself when you can research and build yourself just the good stuff and buy the rest from minors, like selling planes/tanks for AA/AT/small arms/destroyers...
Trading could be anything from equipment for resources, equipment for equipment, equipment for supplies or just equipment for some goodwill/political points etc. = basically lend lease, which could be used to gain more allies. So it would have a noticeable impact on gameplay, but if not already implemented, I can see it only as a DLC later. And it is a good DLC material, because it is entirely optional and not integral for basic gameplay.

 

[Secret Master]

If you look at actual history there was nothing like a global marketplace. Instead countries got into trade agreements and sometimes that involved military hardware. Most of the time you only sold and traded things with friends or potential allies. Many countries were not trading with each other. There was no such thing as a free market.

You mean Britain wasn't buying up surplus Panzer IIIs through proxies in Eastern Europe to equip armored divisions in Africa? I'm shocked, I tell you.

I agree. The decision to loan/give/sell equipment to another country should be a specific action, not something you go shopping for. I'm not even sure you should get reliable intelligence on very model of gun, tank, plane, and ship major powers are using. You might have heard that the Panzer III is a good tank, but how would you really know unless you were fighting against or alongside Germany?

 

[1alexey]

IMO, "marketplace" should only give you a rough advice on how much to pay for or charge for particular vehicle.

If you know that USA "sells" Shermans for 60k apiece, would you buy Pz3 for 200k each? Probably no.

 

[Silver Viper]

Wow, I completely missed this! I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that countries can obtain weapons from other countries. Did the devs mention how this would work if there is no money? Do you have to trade resources? Or would it be on a lend-lease base/free? The latter would mean you can only trade with your allies. Definitely a missed opportunity in my view.

The USA as economic powerhouse provided (old) weapons to a great number of countries before the war, as many European countries had stopped exporting their arms. I was hoping this would be reflected in the game. After all, this should be perfectly doable since countries build individual weapons rather than divisions.

well i couldnt find the original post by podcat, but hey im not the only one who remembers! hehe
no money!!!
but i rly dont know how is the trade going to happen and its a question for myself too. like, rly guys, r we going to barter? with resources? like in medieval villages? idk!

 

[jesperj13]

The decision to loan/give/sell equipment to another country should be a specific action, not something you go shopping for.

I partly agree. Obviously countries wouldn't put their latest technology for sale, but they would be willing to sell off old equipment. This is still happening: old warships/planes/tanks are sold by western countries to other countries in Latin America, Africa and Asia.
Obviously during the war, this market place would not be very helpful. However, think of countries gearing up for war in the mid to late 30's. Finland purchased a number of already obsolete Brewster Buffalo's in 1939, whereas the Netherlands purchased some Curtiss-Wright CW-21's in the early 1940's. Both types were obsolete, but newer types would not have been available as they were required by the USAAF. In fact, the air force of Finland in particular was a mishmash of foreign equipment, containing planes from the UK, the Netherlands, the USA, the SU, Germany, Italy and others (http://niehorster.orbat.com/024_finland/_aircraft_finland.htm) (Other good examples are Greece, Hungary and Yugoslavia with aircraft from all different factions). All these planes would not have been the latest technology, but they would have known what they bought when they did.

In short: before the war, some countries without proper technology or industry definitely went out to shop for bargains in other countries. Hence my idea for a global 'marketplace', albeit not a complete free market. But no-one playing Vicky seems to complain about this?

EDIT: obviously, in the absence of money, this whole system might not work in HoI4. Perhaps a DLC or HoI5... Just thought it would add a nice flavour for our regional and minor powers.

 

[Secret Master]

I'll be more than willing to trade Panzer IIs for Romanian oil. Romania doesn't need cash anyway.

 

[Kovax]

In many, if not most actual cases, the purchaser bought 1-2 pieces of equipment from each of several potential suppliers, then did tests to compare them before making a major purchase. In a few cases, countries were limited in what was available and had to take whatever they could get, but that was in a desperate situation, not as a norm. Either full information or at least 75% of its stats should be accessible, to reflect the testing that was routinely done before a major deal, or else it should be possible to buy just 1-2 units, look at the numbers, then make another purchase or not, based on the results.

HOI3 poorly represented the industrialized minor countries, which in a few cases had the ability to design and develop "modern" equipment only one step behind or even on par with the majors, but lacked the industrial base to produce it in any significant quantity. In such cases, is was far more practical to choose one or two specific items to design and build domestically (and possibly export), and import the rest. A few specific countries in the game had considerably less Leadership but considerably more IC than was "realistic", while others historically lacked the educational institutions and literacy on a broad basis in order to develop their own, and were more accurately portrayed by the game. Problem is: Sweden, Hungary, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, etc. were not at all functionally similar to Afghanistan, Tibet, or Honduras, etc., yet were treated in a fairly similar manner. Essentially, all "minors", industrialized or not, got similar generic starting techs, as well as some slight difference in Leadership, but amounts of IC that varied considerably. I really hope that HOI4 handles it better.

 

[jesperj13]

In many, if not most actual cases, the purchaser bought 1-2 pieces of equipment from each of several potential suppliers, then did tests to compare them before making a major purchase. In a few cases, countries were limited in what was available and had to take whatever they could get, but that was in a desperate situation, not as a norm. Either full information or at least 75% of its stats should be accessible, to reflect the testing that was routinely done before a major deal, or else it should be possible to buy just 1-2 units, look at the numbers, then make another purchase or not, based on the results.

True. I don't know how you could represent this in the game though.
Please understand that I didn't put this idea forward as it is a realistic addition to the game. It is definitely a bit game-y, but I thought it would enhance the experience of playing a regional/minor power. Like you said: their situation is very misrepresented in the game. The potential for obtaing weaponry from other countries could improve their fighting potential.

 

[1alexey]

HOI3 poorly represented the industrialized minor countries, which in a few cases had the ability to design and develop "modern" equipment only one step behind or even on par with the majors, but lacked the industrial base to produce it in any significant quantity. In such cases, is was far more practical to choose one or two specific items to design and build domestically (and possibly export), and import the rest. A few specific countries in the game had considerably less Leadership but considerably more IC than was "realistic", while others historically lacked the educational institutions and literacy on a broad basis in order to develop their own, and were more accurately portrayed by the game. Problem is: Sweden, Hungary, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, etc. were not at all functionally similar to Afghanistan, Tibet, or Honduras, etc., yet were treated in a fairly similar manner. Essentially, all "minors", industrialized or not, got similar generic starting techs, as well as some slight difference in Leadership, but amounts of IC that varied considerably. I really hope that HOI4 handles it better.

The only way to do that, would be to create a deeper "legacy" tech tree, that most industrialized countries already traversed, but non-industrial didn`t, which would be far too much just for making the difference between industrialized minors and unindustrialized minors notable.

It is very possible to keep up in plenty of places as a minor, but it hardly meters in HOI3, as being on par in techs is far more important that bringing diverse, if outdated in places, equipment pool, so everyone below Italy or Romania, went for same infantry-centric composition. 2-3 armor division armed with outdated tanks will bankrupt a minor, while their combat contribution is only slightly larger, if at all, then normal infantry or motorized division.