Idea for Naval Combat Tweak

[Mexel]

I'm currently reading the official history of the Royal Navy in WW1. Something I hadn't appreciated before reading was the power of naval guns in supporting army operations near or on the shore. From holding back the Germans as they pushed from Belgium into France in the coastal strip to supporting the Gallipoli landings to defending the Suez canal (they actually stationed old battleships in the canal to fend off the Ottomans!) to river operations in German Africa, the big naval guns could make a decisive impact on a land battle.

So here's my idea - if you have dreadnoughts or cruisers adjacent to a province where a land battle is taking place, then you get a bonus artillery attack of maybe 20-30% of the ship's attack. Not 100% because only the coastal strip is vulnerable and because the lie of the land can make it hard to hit some targets from the sea. But still, that bonus would bring a nice role-playing aspect to the naval game.

Thoughts?

ps. This is just the best grand strategy game ever!

 

[delra]

I would like that, though it'd have to be stretched a little compared to real history, as all coastal province battles would have to receive this modifier.

But it's already done for HoI3 (half of the reason to ever build SHBB there).

 

[EUnderhill]

I would like that, though it'd have to be stretched a little compared to real history, as all coastal province battles would have to receive this modifier.

But it's already done for HoI3 (half of the reason to ever build SHBB there).

It was in OldVic, and it was fun, even though it apparently was broken and really didn't do anything.

 

[delra]

It was in OldVic, and it was fun, even though it apparently was broken and really didn't do anything.

It doesn't matter whether it does anything at all, or even if it does - what it does exactly. As long as you think it's doing something, it's cool.

 

[Sigmarsson]

I like this idea. It certainly works well in that game by that other company about the -- how shall I call it -- downfall of the samurai. You know the one. With the 3D battles (ZOMG!!!1!) and extremely shallow strategic depth...

 

[General War]

I'd like that too. Nothing drastic, just a small bonus.

 

[unmerged(627409)]

This could be easily added in the form of a +1 bonus to the dice roll (like the bonus for generals, gas attack, or terrain) for either side (attacker or defender) when a battle is fought in a coastal province and that side has any non-transport combat ship. However, if the other side engages those naval units during the battle causing a naval engagement in that provinces coastal waters the land support bonus would then disappear, even during the middle of the battle.

I think this could be an awesome strategic and logistical addition to how wars are fought, and add some realistic and historical flavour.

 

[unmerged(376721)]

I'm currently reading the official history of the Royal Navy in WW1. Something I hadn't appreciated before reading was the power of naval guns in supporting army operations near or on the shore. From holding back the Germans as they pushed from Belgium into France in the coastal strip to supporting the Gallipoli landings to defending the Suez canal (they actually stationed old battleships in the canal to fend of the Ottomans!) to river operations in German Africa, the big naval guns could make a decisive impact on a land battle.

So here's my idea - if you have dreadnoughts or cruisers adjacent to a province where a land battle is taking place, then you get a bonus artillery attack of maybe 20-30% of the ship's attack. Not 100% because only the coastal strip is vulnerable and because the lie of the land can make it hard to hit some targets from the sea. But still, that bonus would bring a nice role-playing aspect to the naval game.

Thoughts?

ps. This is just the best grand strategy game ever!

I like it too!.
Off topic, can I ask what book is that? Available on Amazon?

 

[Morgothic]

I like this idea. It certainly works well in that game by that other company about the -- how shall I call it -- downfall of the samurai. You know the one. With the 3D battles (ZOMG!!!1!) and extremely shallow strategic depth...

Quite good tactical gameplay though.


In all seriousness, it really should be added. How can the British possibly shell Kagoshima if ships cannot shell?

 

[Mexel]

I like it too!.
Off topic, can I ask what book is that? Available on Amazon?

Hey guys, thanks for the enthusiastic response! Another cool idea I've had is to give Monitors a real purpose in the campaign. They were shallow-draught boats designed for close caostal, estuarine and river support. To mimic this, I think Monitors should be allowed to enter the LAND hexes where major rivers meet the sea (think Nile, Ganges, Irrawaddy, Cameroon, Amazon, Mississipi, etc.). There should be a limit on how many can pack in, say 2 or 3, but they would a cool role-playing aspect to the game, I think.

Is there a forum where I can post ideas?

On the subject of background reading on naval matters, the official British naval history of WW1 is "Naval Operations of World War One" by Sir Julian S. Corbett. The good news is that it is out of copyright. So go to Internet Archive.org and search "Naval Operations". There are 4 volumes. You can get Vols 1, 3 and 4 there in pdf fromat for free. Vol 2 is not there, but a Google search will get you an HTML version.


For real buffs, you can also find Jackie Fisher's and Admiral Tirpitz memoirs on the same site, as well as a fascinating book on naval strategy by Corbett.

Cheers!
Mexel

 

[1alexey]

Well, how are WW1 ships suposed to provide accurate support, they do not have radio ommunication and fire direction from land like in WW2.
Also, province size in Victoria 2 is way larger then what WW1 warship could master. Hence, in 90% of the cases ships wouldn`t metter even in costal provinces.

Sorry to spoil your fun.

 

[Morgothic]

Well, how are WW1 ships suposed to provide accurate support, they do not have radio ommunication and fire direction from land like in WW2.
Also, province size in Victoria 2 is way larger then what WW1 warship could master. Hence, in 90% of the cases ships wouldn`t metter even in costal provinces.

Sorry to spoil your fun.

They were used for mass bombardment, and as battles in Victoria revolve around main cities of provinces, it wouldn't be hard to hit (if indiscriminately) the battlefield with heavy fire. Maybe a penalty for both sides although moreso for the enemy (aiming at the baggage train and whatnot)?

 

[Mexel]

Hey Alexey,
you should read the books I mentioned!

Not only did ships have radios in WW1, but observation balloons could signal back to the ground with flags or lights. There were also seaplane carriers with planes that acted as very accurate spotters. Within 5-10 miles of the coast, battleships could provide devastating close suppport with some of the highest calibre guns available at the time. It was also typical to have spotters on land - particular examples were Tsing-tao, where the observers in local hills were key in allowing the Japanese navy to pummel the German fortifications and the Dardanelles where the LACK of land-based spotting was a main reason why the initial navy-only attempt to force the straits was turned into a joint operation to allow the naval guns to more accurately target the Turkish forts and howitzer positions.

I think it would be a nice little role-playing feature to add to the game.

 

[Morgothic]

Hey Alexey,

I think it would be a nice little role-playing feature to add to the game.

And it would also be useful, tactically!

 

[Sigmarsson]

Quie good tactical gameplay though.

Agreed. It was actually through that game (one of my all time favorites) that I discovered Paradox. I was searching Steam for the Sengoku Jidai unit pack add-on, shortened it to just Sengoku for brevity's sake, and found a different game altogether. I've since not looked back, as you can see from my collection of registered Paradox games...

 

[Morgothic]

Agreed. It was actually through that game (one of my all time favorites) that I discovered Paradox. I was searching Steam for the Sengoku Jidai unit pack add-on, shortened it to just Sengoku for brevity's sake, and found a different game altogether. I've since not looked back, as you can see from my collection of registered Paradox games...

Sengoku, a great game Paradox abandoned.

But on that topic, maybe the bombing of Kagoshima should be an event in Victoria 2?

 

[grumphie]

yeah, shelling would be an epic addition.

on the total war debate, i dont think its good to compare PI and CA. i love both total war and PI grand strategy, both for diffrent reasons. total war is for the epic battlefields and spreading graphically beautifull carnage. you dont play it for the epic strategy and incredible AI, or great policy of the developer. PI grand strategy on the other hand isnt played for total epic graphics or simple 10 minute fun, its something you commit to for incredibly complex strategy, a good AI and building an empire.

both have their fun parts, both have their could be betters. PI a bit more fun parts and less could be betters than total war, but both are difrent games, and i look at them as such.

 

[Mexel]

Thanks guys!

Is there a forum or thread somewhere where I could post my ideas for naval shelling of coastal provinces and allowing monitors to enter land hexes of major estuaries so they can influence adjacent hexes?

 

[1alexey]

They were used for mass bombardment,

Mass bombardment is very unusefull, 1914-1915 proved that very well.

and as battles in Victoria revolve around main cities of provinces,

Not true. Mot battles revolved arround supply lines.

it wouldn't be hard to hit (if indiscriminately) the battlefield with heavy fire.

Hitting the battle field doesn`t help that much.

Hey Alexey,
you should read the books I mentioned!

How do you know i didn`t? You just appear to be unwilling to analyse the application to V2 size of province.

Not only did ships have radios in WW1,

Grond troops didn`t have radios to communicate and direct fire control, i think it was pretty clear, was it not?

but observation balloons could signal back to the ground with flags or lights.

Which wouldn`t really help that much, ad baloons are mice meat for even early airplanes.

There were also seaplane carriers with planes that acted as very accurate spotters.

After 1916, yes, but since there are no aviation as independent thing to counter those planes, it is pretty unfair to only have one side of equation represented.

Within 5-10 miles of the coast, battleships could provide devastating close suppport with some of the highest calibre guns available at the time.

To be more precice, after the cretion of Dreadnougts, ships could barely cover 1/4 of V2 costal province in dept. It doesn`t justify the need for combat mechanics. It makes sense in HOI3, where the provinces are much smaller, and battleships can cover most of coastal province with fire, due to better guns and radio-directions. That is not the case for most of V2 game, except maybe last 10 years, but warfare there has many more inaccuracies then just lack of combat modifier.

It was also typical to have spotters on land - particular examples were Tsing-tao, where the observers in local hills were key in allowing the Japanese navy to pummel the German fortifications and the Dardanelles where the LACK of land-based spotting was a main reason why the initial navy-only attempt to force the straits was turned into a joint operation to allow the naval guns to more accurately target the Turkish forts and howitzer positions.

Japanese fleet at Dardanelles?
And if you want to go there, there is also a need for naval mines, coastal batteries, and naval aviation and aerial mine layers, in late years, so operations close to coast could cost as many ships loses as Brits lost during the operation Dardanelles, sine it is widely incorect to just have ship do coastal bombardment at no risk.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

You can add certain modiifers to the "blockaded" static modifier for a province - maybe there is indeed something you can add to help you fighting the enemy...