Idea: Ecumenopoleis (aka planetwide cities)

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Caspian Mortis

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An ecumenopolis or planetwide city (or moonwide city) is a planet or moon that is completely covered by a city (except for possibly oceans, mountains or polar ice caps). These incredibly densely populated planets and moons host hundreds of billions to trillions of sentient beings and would consume vast resources of any interstellar nation. It would be cool to have them in the nothing so this is my idea. Actually I find it they're not being included in the utopia expansion.

Requirements:
-Researched the following technologies: Galactic Administration, Spacescrapers (new), Galactic Market, Supersolid Materials
-Inhabited planet or moon with at least 80% habitability for all species with full citizenship of your nation
-Planet or moon is already fully populated
-100000 minerals and 9000 energy credits (takes 10 years to built)
-Cannot be built on tomb worlds
-Planet or moon must have a planetary capital
Effects:
-Planet gains five "levels", which can be scrolled through (=5 times the amount of current tiles on planet)
Each level can be industrial (+50% credits and minerals) or habitational (+50% research) by choice. The uppermost level cannot be industrial.
-Planet consumes 10 times the food amount of a normal planet of the same size
-Each pop requires 2 times the consumer goods than normally required
-All buildings other than energy buildings on the planet require twice as much energy
-Ecumenopoleis have +10% ethics divergence, so your coreworlds should be safer to built one in than faraway planets
-Doubles the world's amount of unity
-Spaceports of ecumenopoleis produce everything twice as fast
Miscellaneous
-Fallen empires may have ecumenopoleis in their empire
-Purging an ecumenopolis gives twice the opinion malus for each pop purged
-If an ecumenopoleis is under blockade, it is cut off from the nation's food supply and will result in mass starvation
-Unlimited bombardment may cause levels of the ecumenopolis to collapse, causing the death of many pops, might trigger international incident
-May attract illegal immigrants, deporting them might cause an international incident
-Ecumenopoleis cannot be occupied, only blockaded
-Conquering an ecumenopolis always requires 100 warscore

Comments and suggestions are welcome!
 

GC13

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Check workshop for numerous implementations
The only mods I could find that used the word "ecumenopolis" in their descriptions were both... Lacking. Most importantly, the modders lack the ability to make a city world actually have more people living on it.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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Mechanically, ringworlds do pretty much the same thing.

Try 'hive world' on the workshop.
 

Pooks1

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While I do like the idea of Coruscant style ecumenopolis, I find your idea lacks any real benefits for the player to even go build one in the first place. It just eats up more resources, but gives no real bonuses in return, except for the extra tiles which you could use for science labs I guess.
 

Caspian Mortis

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While I do like the idea of Coruscant style ecumenopolis, I find your idea lacks any real benefits for the player to even go build one in the first place. It just eats up more resources, but gives no real bonuses in return, except for the extra tiles which you could use for science labs I guess.
Any ideas? Would reducing the cost or downsides be better?

Also, this is not a request for a mod. I'd just like to see this in game someday, officially.
Mechanically, ringworlds do pretty much the same thing.

Try 'hive world' on the workshop.
But a planetwide city is not the same as a ringworld, they should have different benefits. Also, I am not requesting a mod.
 

Caspian Mortis

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Needlessly convoluted and relies on the "Let's add more tiles to a planet!" idea which I have sincere doubts will ever be added.
It's not like the game is incredibly easy either. How would you implement such a thing? I mean, there's some way we would need to represent those planets having much more population than the average planet.
 

BlackUmbrellas

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It's not like the game is incredibly easy either. How would you implement such a thing? I mean, there's some way we would need to represent those planets having much more population than the average planet.
"Convoluted" is not the same as "difficult".

We already have something that provides an inherent boost to Energy and Research production- Orbital Habitats. I'd expect anything along the idea of an ecumenopolis to follow a similar system- no extra tiles, just some buffs and debuffs specific to the planet type, possibly with ecumenopolis-specific single-tier buildings that produce a high amount.
 

Caspian Mortis

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But how would we represesent the gigantic populations that live on such worlds? Multiple levels would be the best way to do such a thing. Any particular reason why you would be opposed to his?
I'm all for city planets. Don't even care what benefits they have, I just like the idea of them.
Glad to hear that!
 

BlackUmbrellas

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But how would we represesent the gigantic populations that live on such worlds? Multiple levels would be the best way to do such a thing. Any particular reason why you would be opposed to his?
Why do you think we need to physically represent that population?

POP units are already an abstraction. Why couldn't an ecumenopolis have a debuff to POP growth so that they fill up much slower, offsetting the production bonus the tiles and special buildings get?
 

Latheloi

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Why do you think we need to physically represent that population?

POP units are already an abstraction. Why couldn't an ecumenopolis have a debuff to POP growth so that they fill up much slower, offsetting the production bonus the tiles and special buildings get?

The problem with just using slowed pop growth is that the only point you would logically want to create a city world is once you have a completely/mostly full planet anyway. Which would mean the slow pop growth wouldn't do anything.
 

AndragonLea

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While I find the idea interesting, I have to agree that your implementation is missing a little something for my taste.

First: there's no reason that a fully developed city would need to be on a planet that is 80 % hab for all your citizens.

We already have the technology to change the habitability of individual buildings (skyscrapers need to be climate controlled because the uppermost stories would otherwise be quite uncomfortable to live in, we have laboratories that have very controlled atmospheric compositions to prevent certain types of matter from reacting, we have submarines and planes for high altitutes that are regulated, etc tt), so a space faring race should not be depending on the planets natural habitability for its citizens on a planet that is as densely industrialised as the vision you described. You'd have districts and tunnels that would allow citizens that cannot naturally survive on the surface to get around in comfort and safety, with airlocks and rental suits at any exit that leads into an environment that would be harmful for the occupant.
This is also important because otherwise, multi-cultural empires could only construct such a planet on Gaia planets, which is a bit limiting.

Second: the proposed planet needs to be at least no worse than a normal planet or a ring world, because otherwise why build it rather than using the system for a ring world instead? Currently it seems to come with a whole lot of restrictions and debuffs (I know, industrial and other layers give buffs, too, but they don't sound as if they really make up for the increased costs).

I'd propose something along the line of GROWING such a planet to become useful. There should only be the one - it would be a massive undertaking to build, sustain and find a use for such a planet at the stage of civilisation we find out game start in (such planets are usually staples in universes that had advanced civs interacting for thousands of years over thousands of planets, it's a bit unlikely that we would even have one only 100 to 500 years in with a measly few hundred lightly populated planets).

Being inefficient at the start is fine, as long as the final product is worth the investment. Something along the line of covering the entire planet in farms as a first step - that would pay nothing, serving only to serve as a base to feed the many, many people you expect to house. This is on the surface and the first level because it A just makes sense that you'd need the food to sustain your population first, and B because it is much easier to just use the existing planetary atmosphere to aid in food production where possible than it would be to create regulated underground farms for the same purpose. (for roleplaying, just pretend that some of those farms are still cimate controlled to allow for the production of food for species that would not thrive in this environment, if any are in your empire)

Once the surface is filled completely with farms of the highest level (I'd envision this as end-game tech, further even than ring worlds because it would allow one planet to house several planets worth of pops, rather than eating an entire solar system of celestial bodies for the same purpose), you'd have the opportunity to upgrade your planetary HQ into one of three kinds: science, unity or industrial. The planet would have a permanent bonus to energy credit production no matter which type you choose, owing to the idea that a planet filled with tens to hundreds of billions of people would produce the tax income expected of such multitudes (for tax examples, take the amount of money someone in inner-city New York is expected to earn and the expenses he or she would be expected to bear - the planet is basically a huge, incredibly densely populated mega city and living there would probably not be cheap).

Choosing the type of production you want will then let you build your first producing section. The section would have the same amount of tiles as the original surface of the planet (making 25 tile planets intensely attractive for this project) and would cost something akin to 100, maybe 200 minerals per tile. Those costs represent the effort and materials needed to excavate the entire surface of the planet, reinforce the foundations of the buildings above, connect the surface with the deeper layer in a sensible manner and properly cable/connect internet/utilities and just generally try to plan for the future transit of several deeper levels through this one.

This level could have a small bonus for the production of whichever resource you chose when you upgraded the HQ, but it shouldn't be more than 5 to 10 % - a boon, but not a massive one.

Once you construct the 3d level (costs for this should rise by 10 to 20 % per tile, you excavate even deeper, stuff needs to be funneled up through two levels and gotten rid off if your industry has no use for it), you get the opportunity to build the second unique building for this type of planet (first was the HQ), a type of built-in planetary space port. This is both useful and necessary because it allows freighters, haulers and transport liners with atmospheric capabilities to land on any of the existing or future levels of the planet to trade, pick up stuff, deliver ores or whatever else the planet may need (I'd envision unity production to be about having a centre of spirituality/schools/monasteries what have you on the planet, which would need people to be able to visit to be effective).
This building would replace 1 building on each layer of your planet, serving as a huge access hatch/elevator bank and would add a small planet wide modifier to whatever resource you selected (+ 5 %, pushing the second layer to 10 or 15 % + whatever modifiers you have access to and + the pop modifiers - we're getting somewhere).

The fourth layer would become yet more expensive (the first was between 10 to 20 % more expensive to build, this one would double that). It would not introduce a new building, but would introduce a further buff: tapping the planetary core, a small bonus to energy credit production generated by using the heat and pressure of the planetary core to cheaply power any appliance all the way up to the surface. This layer might also have a small, layer-wide bonus to energy credit production for the same reason, if that seems necessary.

The fifth and final layer would consist only of a command & control building in the centre of a 9 tile square, be roughly double as expensive to build (in total) as the first layer and come with the opportunity to build a total of 8 unique buildings.

Two of them could serve security (with one pulling double duty for espionage, if that ever becomes a thing): a planetary security agency to reduce unrest and fight crime (think FBI or elite future cops to ferret out crime in a city the size of several planetary surfaces) that gives boni to unrest reduction and a small happiness /ethics diversion buff via keeping the peace and a permanent military garrison (massive buffs to defensive armies stationed on the planet to make your humunguous planet harder to take - if possible, it should negate much of the reduction in efficiency that comes with bombing, as it serves as a deep reserve for military forces that is 4 layers under the surface and hardened against bombing/siege).

The rest would be administrative buildings that convey a tiny but empire wide and stacking bonus to a resource of your choice. Something like the galactic stock exchange, but smaller and repeatable only on this planetary type and layer. You could build 8 empire tax and custom hubs that boost production of energy credits by 1.5 % each, for example, or just go for a more balanced spread of 4/4 in energy and minerals or 3/3 with the two security buildings.

If we ever get even larger maps and if the gameplay gets extended further out, you could introduce a tech that allows you to have more of these planets or unique ethos buildings that are only producable on this planetary type and the lowest planet layer and that boost an aspect that would benefit that ethic.

As capital planets never join factions, you could make this planet your capitol and as such assure a heavily fortified, hugely productive planet that gives empire wide buffs as the centre of your empire.

For the reason that this would be a very expensive and tasty looking war target, the system would probably both heavily defended by stations and should have a mandatory full garrison of your most bloodthirsty troops + a planetary shield generator.

It should only be selectable as a war target under the condition that you need to ACTUALLY TAKE IT, because otherwise making it resistant to invasion would be pointless, and it should come with a price tag between 3 and 7 times as high as any other planet (4 planetary tiles, build costs, empire wide boni to conquering nation: it needs to be hard and expensive to take or else it would change hands in every war, not to mention almost impossible to recover from once lost).

This would offer the opportunity to some new anomalies: wrecked planets of this type that offer some research + for any technologies this undertaking would require, some fluff ones that show failed attempts at building one of these by progenitor races, "requests" by the materialist fallen empire to "allow" a pop to settle there to study the planet and the population interactions, a broken-open planet of this type that was once functional but has been cracked by an enemy when taking it was too hard/impossible, etc. tt.

It would also be an opportunity for a new one-world Fallen Empire, leviathan or enclace (leviathan: a mobile world of this type housing a hivemind that travels from system to system and eats gas giants for the resources required to keep moving, contact it to trade 10 years of constant resources for possible tech with a chance it might stiff you or kill it by invading it to gain a functioning hive world of a random type rather than having to build one).

TL. DR.: Just shooting the shit about how a massively huge planetary city could function in a vidja game, thank god I am freelancing or my boss would fire me for the time I spent on this. :D

Edith: Boy, this escalated quickly.
Edithth: I mean, this really got out of hand fast.
Ediththth: Why do I now want this more than the shroud, dammit.
 
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BlackUmbrellas

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The problem with just using slowed pop growth is that the only point you would logically want to create a city world is once you have a completely/mostly full planet anyway. Which would mean the slow pop growth wouldn't do anything.
While that's a fair point, I still don't see why we'd need to physically simulate the population.

Ringworld segments already simulate a swath of ringworld habitat as a 25-tile Gaia- and even a small segment of a ringworld should be able to support many more people than an ecumenopolis. While I have no issue with the idea of planetary specializations, I think we're all far better off thinking about them the way Paradox seem to be so far with the Orbital Habitats.
 

thestefan

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While I like the general idea of ecumenopoleis and some of your ideas, I'm not sure that the way you want us to build and implement it is ideal, I also have problem with these effects:
"-Planet consumes 10 times the food amount of a normal planet of the same size
-Each pop requires 2 times the consumer goods than normally required
-All buildings other than energy buildings on the planet require twice as much energy
-Ecumenopoleis have +10% ethics divergence, so your coreworlds should be safer to built one in than faraway planets
-Doubles the world's amount of unity
-Spaceports of ecumenopoleis produce everything twice as fast".

I think Wiz is gonna figure out how to implement this in a later patch/DLC, perhaps the weakness of an ecumenopoleis should be it's reliance of food from other worlds and if blockaded would immediately go into bad state of starvation and rioting. After all in many cities today, the shelves only last 3 days without new deliveries, starvation and rioting would be quick to follow any form of distruption of food supply.

Not sure if I think it should be possible to freely build ecumenopoleis, perhaps it should be an event that can trigger on planets with many tiles. high habitability and development(perhaps trade center or similar if trade is implemented in later patched). Perhaps it should be an anomaly?

I think ideally ecumenopoleis should while very profitable to own, be both rare and vulnerable to disruption of trade/logistics from space. The implementation is probably a few patches and DLC:s down the road.
 

Latheloi

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While that's a fair point, I still don't see why we'd need to physically simulate the population.

Ringworld segments already simulate a swath of ringworld habitat as a 25-tile Gaia- and even a small segment of a ringworld should be able to support many more people than an ecumenopolis. While I have no issue with the idea of planetary specializations, I think we're all far better off thinking about them the way Paradox seem to be so far with the Orbital Habitats.

Hmmm. Yes. I would sort of agree. I suppose the degree of abstraction requires slightly screwy ways of thinking about what a pop actually is.

In which case, I would personally suggest that the best way of representing a city world would be, essentially, a set of (even) higher tier building that the current top tier.

They would obviously need reasonably significant resource generation, potentially akin to that of the current rare tech buildings. Having resources that are more difficult to generate like unity and influence be available on them would be sensible too.

New Galactic Food means that you could actually have no food production type buildings amongst these city world buildings. If possible, having a cost in food for them might be useful too (to simulate the greater population size.)

I don't think there should be any real requirements like habitability etc. beyond a tech/ascension barrier as is the case with habitats.
 

thestefan

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Also I hate the concept of galactic food, without some form of trade routes, if you wanna move stuff around there should be a logistical cost, both in terms of resources but also in terms of practicality and time.