Idea: creating federations

[Legolas]

Currently, the game allows the player to create some historical (or somewhat historical) cultural unions, such as Great Britain or Spain. However, if the player doesn't (want to) go the historical route, they are left with a problem of either ending up with a country with many differing unaccepted cultures, or eradicating those cultures, which just feels wrong. Of course, you can in principle get other cultures accepted in your realm, but once you become large enough, it's no longer feasible to gain 20% base tax from non-state-culture provinces.

I think that a solution to this problem could be either a decision or a new government type, Federation. A decision ("Adopt federal administration", much like EU3 had "Adopt imperial administration") might work better, because I would imagine many government types being able to do that.

The requirements for federalizing your country could be a certain Admin technology level (perhaps 10, as with other country formation decisions, or even higher, to represent rather modern thinking for the era) and a minimum number of non-state-culture provinces, perhaps also a minimum number of total provinces (so that you don't get a Federation of Hesse or Armagnac).

The result of the decision would be a significantly reduced threshold for accepting other cultures, perhaps an increase in Trade/Production power (less centralized government allows more free enterprise), but a reduction in tax income (less centralized government leaves more money to regional governors) and perhaps an increased build cost (less centralized planning of infrastructure). In addition, the cost and duration of changing a province culture could be significantly increased, to mimic the cultural independence enshrined in the federal agreements; perhaps the same could go for missionaries.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable idea at all?

 

[BoleslavLev]

I think it´s a great idea. The requirements should set this decision somewhere in the 18th century so it would reflect the fact those ideas were popular quite late (19th century; Immanuel Kant wrote his Perpetual Peace in 1795), but simultaneously it would allow the player to have enough time to enjoy the pros of the decision. Some ruler could hypotheticaly start the federalization of his/her country sooner (in 18th century, aristocracy was weak and cities weren´t that strong yet, so this policy could started if the ruler would want it to).

I like the effects of federation you´ve suggest. I have one suggestion which might or might not be good, but it reflects the policy and possible policy in Austrian empire and I think it would simulate the tolerance of different cultures quite well.

My suggestion: After starting federalization you´d: a) accept all cultures of your culture group b) don´t accept any new culture
Then, you could make another decisions in which you would start the toleration of any specific culture you like. This way it would simulate the need of lowering bad moods in particular parts of the state - you could tolerate just some cultures or you could tolerate them all. This decisions then would remove culture maluses (or lower them) and make buildings more expensive, lower taxes (as you have suggested).
Czechs for example were trying long and hard (and in vain) to persuade Austrians to make both cultures equal. Austrians rather make equal Hungarians which can be seen even by renaming the country to Austria-Hungary. Maybe if the Austrian empire would federalizate, it wouldn´t collapse later.

The federalization could have effects almost on anything - higher morale, lower RR, higher stability cost, lower manpower, harder conversions etc.

 

[gaius valerius]

Sounds like a 19th century thing, so no The Austrian Dual Monarchy solution to their problems and the other Slavic elements in their empire continually sueing for a 3rd pillar on par with the German and Hungarian part, all for naught eventually. The only thing approaching the Kantian ideal was Iroquis federation, doubt the upcoming expansion will deliver on that part though Good argument but outside of the timeframe or at least to peripheral.

 

[Legolas]

Sounds like a 19th century thing, so no

Is it really? Sure, famous federal states like the US, Austria-Hungary or the German Empire rose to prominence during the 19th century. But there were others too, Great Britain and the Netherlands being the prime examples (as far as I'm aware, they were unions when forming, rather than unitary states).

 

[gaius valerius]

Is it really? Sure, famous federal states like the US, Austria-Hungary or the German Empire rose to prominence during the 19th century. But there were others too, Great Britain and the Netherlands being the prime examples (as far as I'm aware, they were unions when forming, rather than unitary states).

They were far from federations as you suggest though The Republic of the United Provinces wasn't a federation, it was a Republic ruled by the Estates-General, and of course it was a culturally unitary state. Great-Britain also was a parliamentary dominated constitutional monarchy when the union was formed, little federalism was involved here, as the constituent parts were made one rather than given equality. Scotland and the Scottish government was aborbed into the English Parliament. Federalism really is a 19th century thing, the timeframe of EU IV is still very much dominated by states striving for maximum internal sovereignity within the constraints of the time. Tolerance was not unthinkable, but federalism is something else yet.

 

[Rya]

Let me get this straight in game terms: You want to have all cultures accepted (for lower revolt risk, I presume) for a little less tax income. I think you can argue all you want, this won't happen as it is too unbalancing.

 

[Legolas]

I don't want such a decision to be unbalancing. Lots of drawbacks could be added; I'm merely interested in it for roleplaying reasons, rather than actually making the country stronger for it.

 

[americanu197]

maybe a federation can be imposed by certain rebels and only the major cultures become accepted but it already seems like im talking about victoria...and it isnt very historical anyway USA even thou it formed in this time frame not all cultures became accepted french and dutch and irish people were still treat like 2nd grade citizens and so on

 

[LordSolar]

They were far from federations as you suggest though The Republic of the United Provinces wasn't a federation, it was a Republic ruled by the Estates-General, and of course it was a culturally unitary state

The united provinces where although culturally similar quite divided. Every gewest(province) had it's own government and paid for it's own soldiers and fleet. Only thing was that Holland was able to dominate the Estates-General and so it seemed as if the united provinces where really united

 

[BoleslavLev]

I was trying to think of something, but I have to agree politically federations appeared in 19th century (to be exact - national federations). Kant wrote about it in the very late 18th century but that is all. Political federations or at least their concept is very old though.

That said I´d still love some solution for non-accepted cultures. Even when I have enough points to flip them it doesn´t always seem right to me Couldn´t there at least be some option to support chosen non-accepted cultures to grow so you can accept them? Like migration from other states or something similar to it. I just don´t like the fact you can only flip cultures to your own one. If you´d have 55% your culture and 15% for 3 smaller ones (15% for each of them), you have to flip 45% of your cultures. If you could somehow support any 2 of those 3 cultures (let´s say you are Poland and you are supporting Ruthenians and Prussians), you´d have to only flip 10% to have 95% cultures accepted and 15% to have every culture accepted.

 

[gaius valerius]

The united provinces where although culturally similar quite divided. Every gewest(province) had it's own government and paid for it's own soldiers and fleet. Only thing was that Holland was able to dominate the Estates-General and so it seemed as if the united provinces where really united

There you have it The Staten-Generaal in Amsterdam ruled quite supreme. Oldenbarneveldt, De Witt, they all paid the price. That division however has little to do with federalistic tendencies but more with outright powerplay. You can trace similar tensions in France (especially during the 16th century when royal power encroached hard on the Parliaments) or in Castile, etc.

 

[mcmanusaur]

I like the idea, and it pertains to a lot of what I've suggested/speculated in the past. Obviously it would need to be balanced, but the concept is good and worth adding in my opinion.

 

[Red John]

It does seem a little shallow to be forced to wipe out culture after culture because they wont stop rebelling due to not being accepted. Something to remedy that is welcome.

 

[Legolas]

It does seem a little shallow to be forced to wipe out culture after culture because they wont stop rebelling due to not being accepted. Something to remedy that is welcome.

Completely agreed. In my game as Lithuania, I peacefully integrated Hungary and Austria after having them under PU for more than a century (take that, von Habsburgs! ), but they were too small to become accepted cultures, so it seems awkward that I would have to eradicate their cultures completely.

 

[Vedinu]

This would be good, but I'd like to be able to... combine countries.

Historically, when Denmark inherited Norway, the country became Denmark-Norway So if we inherit a country that is about the same size as our country, I think the country should get a new name. Like if you inherit... say Ireland as England, you'd be England-Ireland.

But of course, that can't possibly happen, so I'll just support this idea.

 

[mcmanusaur]

This would be good, but I'd like to be able to... combine countries.

Historically, when Denmark inherited Norway, the country became Denmark-Norway So if we inherit a country that is about the same size as our country, I think the country should get a new name. Like if you inherit... say Ireland as England, you'd be England-Ireland.

But of course, that can't possibly happen, so I'll just support this idea.

That shouldn't be that hard to implement, as far as I know. Make an event/decision for switching tags with certain conditions, and simply copy over all the flavor content from the constituent countries for the new tag's resource files. You might have to make custom flags, but that's it.