Idea: Cap max armies based on number of soldier jobs filled.

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JeffSteel

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It seems to me the main problem with ground combat is it boils down to just queuing up enough troops to outnumber the garrison your besieging, then landing them for the win. It's reminiscent of how fleets used to have infinite capacity so it always boiled down to biggest fleet wins, if techs were even. What if you had an army cap, like naval capacity, that would be increased by soldier jobs. So you cant just spam 100's of armies and the army strength modifier would at least matter a little. You wouldn't even need to recode the ground mechanics or anything either, and soldiers already affect naval capacity so....

Dumb idea? Or no?
 
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Head over to the suggestions forum; there's several army rework suggestions from this past week alone. It's clearly in need of a rework, though there's little consensus as to how.
 
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Bezborg

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For what it's worth, I agree with your idea.

It would make army strength and species traits very relevant. You would actually care who's in the army. So yeah, no-brainer tbh, thumbs up
 
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PK_AZ

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and the army strength modifier would at least matter a little
I do not think that making army modifiers 'matter a little' is valid argument. Either number of armies is effectively limited - and then any army modifier matter, not only a little - or it is effectively unlimited and modifiers have no meanings at all. Don't want to sound harsh, but I think you should concentrate on big picture - how smaller number of armies interact with number of battles you fight (it did not interact at all btw, because soldiers give naval capacity, so you need many soldiers, so you have enough soldiers to support that ten armies you need; any rework of ground armies have to take care of army REGENERATION, not army CREATION) - and not little details like army strength modifier actually working.
 

Ryika

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I think adding more management to armies is the wrong direction. Can't think of anything more annoying than being in a middle of a war just to realize that I don't have enough soldier jobs to field the number of armies that I need to take that ridiculously overfortified planet over there.

If discouraging army spam is the goal, why not just do something simple like increasing all army upkeep by a growing percentage based on the amount of armies you have active? That would discourage spam without introducing arbitrary hardcaps.

But then again, I would prefer a system where bombardment is the main solution to dealing with heavy fortification. Right now it's just not strong enough and takes ages compared to throwing a stack of armies against the wall until it crumbles. Or maybe armies are just too efficient at the job.
 
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One problem this game has always had is that fleets always trump armies. It just becomes a matter of time. This makes investing in armies and generals less important. Why invest in land forces when you can just invest more into navy, which not only beats other navies, but also beats land forces? There's little incentive to value and invest in ground forces, other than minimizing time between invasions and potential war exhaustion from lost armies.

The AI also still doesn't build enough defenses. I rarely, if ever, see strongholds and planetary shields.

I think it would be cool if planets can fight back against besieging fleets. Yeah, you can still bomb the shit out of a planet, but your fleet will take damage and weaken, leaving it vulnerable against a rescuing fleet. I'm thinking stuff like planetary guns and/or hangar bays as building slots, similar to starbase modules. This is what a fortress world should be. This way fleets can't just sit there and pound away free damage forever, making an effective army more important to defeat those defenses on the ground. The Klendathu Drop scene in Starship Troopers comes to mind, with the big aliens that shoot the blue plasma from their butts. To balance it out, assault armies can't just attack a planet with siege defenses, they'll get shot down. So they'll definitely need an escort to absorb and distract the planetary defenses. Put an end to the crap where you can just zip through an enemy's territory, take all the bases, while your army leap-frogs from planet-to-planet, completely uncontested.

I'm just throwing out ideas here.
 
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drawar

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We must link the soldiers to the ships.
Have one or more ships dedicated to invasions (therefore less powerful in space battles) or new modules to customize existing ships as invasion ships.
Add a sailor/manpower system based on the jobs of soldiers and others.
Add an attrition system and allow sailors/manpowers to be recovered only from allied starbases (?) unless special features or specific modules (such as cloning tanks in module A).

It can also potentially allow the addition of a ship boarding system.
Perhaps also allow a system for personalized crews of its ships, defining if desired specific species according to the available locations. Each species / subspecies can have its own sailors/manpower value.

The different ship pop locations would be divided into: Commander, Technician/Sailor, and Soldier.
It can have specific and/or free locations.
Commanders are the best at increasing the command value of the ship.
Technicians/Sailors are the best at increasing the level of maintenance of the ship.
Soldiers are the best for combat (boarding and invasion).
Various factors can vary the skills of the different pops employed.

As with the ships, we could customize pops for the various roles.
We could then add equipment (as before where we could customize the soldiers).
For each role, you can specify the species allowed for that role.
Restricting the species may allow you to take advantage of specific genetic bonuses, but care must be taken that the sailors/manpower of the specifically chosen species are large enough to meet the need.

Equipement :
There are 5 customizable elements :
- armament
- armor
- uniform
- helmet
- equipment

The armament is divided into two types: light and heavy.
Sailors have access only to light. Heavy armament can not be used during boarding.
Soldiers can be equipped with both weapons and use the one appropriate to the situation.

Armor is only available to soldiers. It provides effective protection against additional cost.

The uniform is the basic outfit. It provides protection against the dangers of space, but is not very effective against weapons (without the addition of armor). Nevertheless with more advanced technologies, they can help maintain vital functions and even heal wounds.

Helmets are essential for voluntary or unplanned visits to space. In addition to being protective, they are also very useful for communication and tactical management for the most advanced models, although adding features can be at the expense of protection.

The equipment represents various non-essential elements, but can help a pop in his tasks or provide some help: medical kit, target system, camouflage system, "magic" talisman (moral), food ration...

The equipment available may vary according to the type of pop (organic, machine, lithoids ...), as well as specificities of the species, such as being psionic.
 
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I think before we make big changes, we need to review some aspects of how things are now.

1. Not all armies are derived from pops: consider clone armies, mega warforms, xenomorphs and so on. It's not clear how these would factor into an army cap. Also, some armies are far more powerful per army than others; does that mean they should also use a lot of capacity?

2. For what it's worth, quality already matters a lot more in armies than it does in ships. With ships, it's nice to have better weapons but ultimately it's all about the aggregate amount of fleet power, whether that's a few good ships or a lot of mediocre ships. With enough of an advantage over your opponent, you'll take limited losses too, because the combined firepower of that mass of ships is enough to annihilate whatever comes into firing range (and actually weapons range is the only "quality" stat that can't be completely negated by quantity). Planetside though it's not like that, because combat width is a thing. If you try to assault a Fallen Empire homeworld with nothing but basic armies, you can win eventually but it's a giant meatgrinder and you end up consuming several times as much army power as the defenders' power, because you can only use a small amount of your power in each wave. Conversely, if you assault planets of a regular empire, even planets covered in fortresses, with Cybrex warforms, the defenders are just helplessly mown down almost regardless of their number, and your armies can keep assaulting planet after planet while taking next to no damage.

3. There is already a cap on how much stuff you can expend in a war, namely war exhaustion. There's no manpower per se, and the mineral cost of spamming out armies is indeed pretty negligible by the mid-game. However, if you throw away enough armies in a single war, you'll hit 100% war exhaustion and be forced to peace out. (This is not uncommon in the aforementioned "human waving the Fallen Empire homeworld" scenario.) There is even a scaling factor, where different kinds of army cost different amounts of war exhaustion.

The obvious weakness of war exhaustion is that it's per war, not per empire, so if you're "exhausted" out of one war you can immediately go start another war with someone else. Maybe there should be something that carries over between wars to reflect a limited capacity for aggression (depending vastly on empire type, e.g. obviously a Determined Exterminator should take a lot longer to get tired of war than some random non-Militarist non-Gestalt empire that happened to build a Colossus). But I don't know if manpower specifically needs to be modelled, or if there is even a consistent way of doing so across all empire types and army types.
 
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I'd rather just make armies a ship component and force players and AI to make a few troop ships (or mixed ships with both). I'd also make troop component boost planet bombardment. It would solve many problems.

  • Don't have to worry about troops following ships, this is a human and AI problem
  • Can't just spam them out for minerals
  • Can benefit from fleet manager goodness (though hopefully fleet manager is fixed soon)
  • Troops use naval cap which would function like a soft cap.
  • Troops would now be soft capped by soldier jobs (because normal people build fortresses for naval cap, only crazy people use them defensively)
  • Troop component could help with bombardment, making troop carrying ships more anti-planet and make bombardment less tedious.
  • Pressing "recruit" on planets individually to build a bunch of troops is annoying.
  • Losing an invasion army could just incur a food/mineral/energy upkeep on the ship carrying it and allow the ship itself to slowly regenerate the army.
  • With clone tech the ships could continuously armies on a planet, so you don't have to worry about those pesky FE planets with 5k defense
  • I like lists with 10 items so I'm padding it and you can't stop me
 
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Ikael

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I quite agree with the OP. It is a quite straightforward way to make troop quality matter without needing to reinvent the wheel. Just relate meaningfully two already existing mechanics (jobs & ground combat) et voilá.

Sure, you will also need to adjust lots of other things as well: bombardment (so you have to choose between annihilating a planet VS "stealing" its pops via ground invasions), the role of other non-pop troops such as xenomorphs (some special resource maintenance might be in order), and war exhaustion (which perhaps ought to affect pop growth, or even reflect losses by outright killing your soldier pops?).

But generally talking, I like the general gist of "interlocking already existing systems" rather than adding another one on top in order to make ground combat more interesting.
 

Echo Candor One

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It seems to me the main problem with ground combat is it boils down to just queuing up enough troops to outnumber the garrison your besieging, then landing them for the win. It's reminiscent of how fleets used to have infinite capacity so it always boiled down to biggest fleet wins, if techs were even. What if you had an army cap, like naval capacity, that would be increased by soldier jobs. So you cant just spam 100's of armies and the army strength modifier would at least matter a little. You wouldn't even need to recode the ground mechanics or anything either, and soldiers already affect naval capacity so....

Dumb idea? Or no?
I really like this and want to at least try it.

I wonder how hard it is to learn to mod this game. Where would I start?
 

Ryika

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I really like this and want to at least try it.

I wonder how hard it is to learn to mod this game. Where would I start?
There is a modding guide that goes over all of the basics:

It also has that table on the right, for more information on specific topics.
From that point on, you can largely do what you want to do by looking at the game files, or other mods that do similar things.

Overall, Stellaris Modding is pretty easy, but often requires creative workarounds if you try to do things that the game wasn't designed for.
 
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I see the total population cap as the number of people who are enlisting or being conscripted and soldiers job as the drill sergeants and trainers or specialists
To model that you'd still need a huge influence in army strength based off of Pops working soldier jobs. The difference in effectiveness between two conscript armies, one trained by manuals and people who have already read the manuals, and the other trained by lifers with combat experience and with a very large chunk of their army made up of said lifers, would be immense.
 
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An army cap tied to solider jobs just like naval capacity should only apply to assault armies used to attack. Garrison armies spawned by planets should be a seperate system.

With that as a prerequisite I dont think such a thing is an awful idea. however, trying to vastly change how things work just to make it more "interesting" is a recipe for disaster especially since nobody ever suggests these things with any thought put into it.

Also clone armies and robot armies are literally there as cannon fodder you mass produce. as such they should not be tied to such things. (not to mention zombies who are dead)
 
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