Idea Brainstorming: Replacing Retinues in LoR

[Jorlem]

The devs have stated that they regret having tied the retinue mechanic to a DLC, as it has grown to become something that vastly alters the balance of the game. So, why not just seperate it from the DLC? Because it would greatly decrease the value of the LoR DLC, and could easily anger those that have spent money for that content.

I think there is a fair solution to this: remove the DLC requirement for retinues, and add in some new content that would be exclusive to the DLC to replace it. That way, the devs could more easily expand or rebalance the retinues into a solid standing army mechanic, and owners of the DLC would still have roughly the same amount of DLC exclusive content.

So, I ask all of you, what addition or combination of additions do you think would be appropriate as a replacement for the retinue mechanic as LoR exclusive content? I'm hoping that if we can come to something approaching a consensus, I could post it in the bug forum as an enhancement request.

 

[Talq]

The DLC is only 4.99, and has already allowed you to play with retinues for up to 18 months (and if you've played Byzantines you've also used the rest of the DLC) - nowdays its also in the complete pack for a substantial effective discount.

If you bought the DLC a couple of months ago solely for retinues you can be a bit peeved, but anybody who bought it near release surely would have gotten their value from it. (of course, people will still whine, it seems to be a common thing now)

Personally I couldn't care less if retinues were replaced with anything - like I've said I've bought it, I've got my value, and I'm hardly going to turn it off in a fit of pique. But if your criteria is the replacement must be equivalent to retinues, then you're doomed to disappointment.

That said: hellenic & roman is stupidly anachronistic and the Greece/crusade issue isn't DLC material.

 

[Pte Baldrick]

That's already doable. Go into the defines and you can mod the upkeep in...

Easy-peasy...

I don't think the poster was talking about modding capabilities...

 

[Emren]

I think there is a fair solution to this: remove the DLC requirement for retinues, and add in some new content that would be exclusive to the DLC to replace it. That way, the devs could more easily expand or rebalance the retinues into a solid standing army mechanic, and owners of the DLC would still have roughly the same amount of DLC exclusive content.

So what you are essentially suggesting is that the retinues are moved to the base game, rebalanced (i.e. made more expensive, lower cap, appear later or whatever), and then add something else to the DLC? That is a good idea, I think. Another option would be to simply just roll the DLC into the base game, rebalance retinues, and reprice the game slightly.

 

[JumpingHornet]

I'd like to see them flesh out Hellenic a bit.

I mean, we already have Reformed Pagan religions, with loads of flavour (for the Norse at least), what harm could come from adding flavour to Hellenism?

 

[Thure]

So what you are essentially suggesting is that the retinues are moved to the base game, rebalanced (i.e. made more expensive, lower cap, appear later or whatever), and then add something else to the DLC? That is a good idea, I think. Another option would be to simply just roll the DLC into the base game, rebalance retinues, and reprice the game slightly.

BUt many people here miss that some people bought LoR just because the retuines. A new feature that replaces them should add something that this people would like. Otherwise we would have many complains. THis people don't want new Byzantine features.

 

[Pte Baldrick]

I mean, we already have Reformed Pagan religions, with loads of flavour (for the Norse at least), what harm could come from adding flavour to Hellenism?

You've essentially answered your own question. The Non-Norse pagans lack any unique flavour, and you want to add flavour for a dead religion, which does not exist in the game outside of the history files, and is only obtainable either by using the Ruler Designer or modding the game?

 

[empathica]

Just a thought that I had, but what if they implemented a "turn the roman empire roman" feature? it would have to be impossibly difficult to pull off, given how difficult it would have been in real life.

So, you just conquered all of the land necessary to reform the roman empire? not that great, because it isn't actually roman! Whenever you think of Rome, you think a bunch of people in togas discussing how angry Jupiter must have been that day to have sent such a great storm their way, not a bunch of Italians and Greeks arguing about some guy named Jesus (didn't we crucify him? Constantine truly was the worst emperor ever). No, you must become truly Roman and recreate Rome the way it was when the first Caesar reigned. Thus you are given an option to adopt the Roman culture and religion (hellenic? this is Rome, not Greece, get out of here). If you choose to become the most Roman (descriptor) Roman (religion) Roman (culture) ever, good luck, because living hell awaits you.

You, my friend have just decided to wear nothing but togas and speak nothing but latin, and nobody else in the entire world does either one. In fact, I think everybody would agree that doing these would be taking this whole "I'm the emperor of Rome!" thing way too far. Therefore, every single one of your vassals and courtiers now has a -50 opinion malus because "my liege is insane and wears weird clothes". Oh well, at least mercenaries don't care how crazy you are. Also, no way they want their kids raised like that, so they will always refuse whenever you offer to educate their kids. Oh, but that's not all, because all of your non-Indian neighbors are thinking "my ancestors died to rid the world of the roman menace, and now they are back? lets show them who's boss!", giving them a cultural "holy war" cb on you (the targets would be kingdoms because they already have the religious holy war for duchies) and a -200 opinion malus just to make sure they hate everything you represent in the world. Also, all of their vassals get a +200 "at war with filthy romans" opinion boost while at war with you, meaning all of your enemies are superpowered badasses whenever you are at war (whether offensive or defensive). Oh, dear, your vassals just revolted because they all suddenly hate you? here comes the entirety of the world to take all of your land. Of course, since you are the rightful emperor of the entire world, you can declare the same cultural "holy war" on them to take them out by the kingdom, but that's hardly a relief since you probably no longer exist.

All is not lost, however, since it is indeed possible to convince your vassals and courtiers to embrace the toga, but only if they have a high enough opinion of you (good luck, since basically all your vassals and courtiers are now zealous about their culture). once you have managed to convert your vassals, they will work to spread it to the peasants just like what happens with every other culture (if having Scotland being awarded Jerusalem in a crusade eventually turns the Jerusalemite peasants Scottish, than choosing to become Roman should make your peasants eventually turn Roman). Of course, since you basically just invented a religion and culture, you won't be able to summon holy men or nobles of the Roman culture or religion until you have converted a province to be properly Roman Roman (once you have either the culture or religion converted, it should be much easier to do the other, for reasons that seem obvious to me), instead summoning people of the religion and culture of your capital.

So basically, you can turn Rome into a Roman Roman Rome that would make Augustus Caesar proud, but in order to do so, you must placate your vassals who all of a sudden hate you, defeat supercharged enemies who are primed to take all of your land in one fell swoop, and wait as RNGesus Romanizes Rome. Now, all I need is for everyone to pick apart my idea, showing how stupid it is just like what happened with the first guy to suggest something like it.

 

[Thure]

Just a thought that I had, but what if they implemented a "turn the roman empire roman" feature? it would have to be impossibly difficult to pull off, given how difficult it would have been in real life.

So, you just conquered all of the land necessary to reform the roman empire? not that great, because it isn't actually roman! Whenever you think of Rome, you think a bunch of people in togas discussing how angry Jupiter must have been that day to have sent such a great storm their way, not a bunch of Italians and Greeks arguing about some guy named Jesus (didn't we crucify him? Constantine truly was the worst emperor ever). No, you must become truly Roman and recreate Rome the way it was when the first Caesar reigned. Thus you are given an option to adopt the Roman culture and religion (hellenic? this is Rome, not Greece, get out of here). If you choose to become the most Roman (descriptor) Roman (religion) Roman (culture) ever, good luck, because living hell awaits you.

You, my friend have just decided to wear nothing but togas and speak nothing but latin, and nobody else in the entire world does either one. In fact, I think everybody would agree that doing these would be taking this whole "I'm the emperor of Rome!" thing way too far. Therefore, every single one of your vassals and courtiers now has a -50 opinion malus because "my liege is insane and wears weird clothes". Oh well, at least mercenaries don't care how crazy you are. Also, no way they want their kids raised like that, so they will always refuse whenever you offer to educate their kids. Oh, but that's not all, because all of your non-Indian neighbors are thinking "my ancestors died to rid the world of the roman menace, and now they are back? lets show them who's boss!", giving them a cultural "holy war" cb on you (the targets would be kingdoms because they already have the religious holy war for duchies) and a -200 opinion malus just to make sure they hate everything you represent in the world. Also, all of their vassals get a +200 "at war with filthy romans" opinion boost while at war with you, meaning all of your enemies are superpowered badasses whenever you are at war (whether offensive or defensive). Oh, dear, your vassals just revolted because they all suddenly hate you? here comes the entirety of the world to take all of your land. Of course, since you are the rightful emperor of the entire world, you can declare the same cultural "holy war" on them to take them out by the kingdom, but that's hardly a relief since you probably no longer exist.

All is not lost, however, since it is indeed possible to convince your vassals and courtiers to embrace the toga, but only if they have a high enough opinion of you (good luck, since basically all your vassals and courtiers are now zealous about their culture). once you have managed to convert your vassals, they will work to spread it to the peasants just like what happens with every other culture (if having Scotland being awarded Jerusalem in a crusade eventually turns the Jerusalemite peasants Scottish, than choosing to become Roman should make your peasants eventually turn Roman). Of course, since you basically just invented a religion and culture, you won't be able to summon holy men or nobles of the Roman culture or religion until you have converted a province to be properly Roman Roman (once you have either the culture or religion converted, it should be much easier to do the other, for reasons that seem obvious to me), instead summoning people of the religion and culture of your capital.

So basically, you can turn Rome into a Roman Roman Rome that would make Augustus Caesar proud, but in order to do so, you must placate your vassals who all of a sudden hate you, defeat supercharged enemies who are primed to take all of your land in one fell swoop, and wait as RNGesus Romanizes Rome. Now, all I need is for everyone to pick apart my idea, showing how stupid it is just like what happened with the first guy to suggest something like it.

Actually there are already two Roman Empires in the game in nearby all start dates...
And Hellenic religion means Roman-Hellenic.

 

[empathica]

yes, but there is no political entity ingame called "The Roman Empire" until you create it. I am well aware that everybody and their dog claimed to be the Roman Emperor, but the devs, not me, have decided that to be called "The Roman Empire", you need to control 14 specific duchies. under my plan you can choose to be a Greek or whatever Roman Emperor and not get the impossible challenge. You would just be another Roman Emperor among 2, 3, or 4. It would only be if you tried to recreate Rome as it existed under Augustus that everyone would get pissed off.

edit: yes, but calling the religion Roman instead of Hellenic with Roman-Hellenic implied allowed me to talk about being the most Roman Roman Roman Rome ever while being grammatically correct. That's basically the entire reason I did it.

 

[balmung60]

We should really be thinking about features that aren't Byzantine-specific, since retinues aren't, and thus, any proper replacement shouldn't be, either.

Perhaps a system for sponsoring adventurers and/or rebels instead of having them simply pull thousands of men and a stack of cash out of thin air.

Or maybe somehow enhancing interactions with vassalized heads of religion, such as the Ecumenical Patriarch and most reformed pagan religious heads.

 

[Talq]

Not necessarily. LoR has probably made most of its money for Paradox already, and the non-Byzantine specific nature of retinues was part of the problem (because something sold as being largely about the Byzantines included stuff that affected everything)

 

[Pte Baldrick]

Not necessarily. LoR has probably made most of its money for Paradox already, and the non-Byzantine specific nature of retinues was part of the problem (because something sold as being largely about the Byzantines included stuff that affected everything)

Honestly, if Retinues were a seperate DLC (which I also happened to have,) I'd probably never have played with the DLC active once I'd worked out how exploitable they are. As things are, though, Legacy of Rome is one of the most proliferated DLCs, and even when not playing as a Byzantine character, I usually just prefer to keep all DLCs on where possible.

To put it one way, Retinues lessen how much I value the Legacy of Rome, at least personally.

 

[Zolotaya]

... The game without retuines is much harder than with retuines.

I agree with everything you said in this thread except this. It is more tedious but not harder without retinues.

 

[Thure]

I agree with everything you said in this thread except this. It is more tedious but not harder without retinues.

Adventures and peasant or decadence revolts? They are harder without retuines.

 

[Zolotaya]

Adventures and peasant or decadence revolts? They are harder without retuines.

Before those were the problems they are now, you had things like the "Vulture" event which stood in their place. I personally have not had a single adventurer succeed against me in 5 post RoI campaigns and for those that start out in a bad position, I don't even have to assassinate the leader to win the war.

 

[StephenT]

There's a pretty obvious answer a lot of people have missed.

Move retinues into the base game, but just have one generic retinue with a mixture of troops types available.
People who own the DLC are still able to buy all the different types of retinue, including cultural retinues.

Or maybe just make the cultural retinues DLC-only content, and maybe throw in a couple of extra decisions or events for DLC-owners to balance it.
(A decision to keep your cultural buildings if you change coulture, perhaps at a small price, would be welcome.)

 

[Ravenous.BE]

I fully agree with the OP.
Just because LoR is a DLC doesn't mean it can't get more/new content or changes to it's content. Same goes for all the DLCs.

 

[sealy300]

I think the simplest way to find out is have a Plebiscite, all those who have the DLC can vote weather to:
1. Allow Retinues in the base-game for Free
2. Allow Retinues in the base-game with added content for LoR
3. None of the above

Then there can be a poll to decide what should be added if 2 win this vote, simples.

 

[JumpingHornet]

You've essentially answered your own question. The Non-Norse pagans lack any unique flavour, and you want to add flavour for a dead religion, which does not exist in the game outside of the history files, and is only obtainable either by using the Ruler Designer or modding the game?

Basically.

I mean, it's not like any of the pagan religions ever really reformed in that time period anyways.

Also, what's wrong with adding a dead religion to the game? I've seen so many topics about people wanting the Hellenic religion to actually have flavour, and I see no harm in doing so. You speak as if a dead religion appearing in the game wouldn't make any sense. Well, the Cumans reforming Tengri, or Scandinavians reforming the Nordic faith make absolutely no sense to me, yet I still try to do both of those things if I play as them.

 

[Talq]

There's a pretty obvious answer a lot of people have missed.

Move retinues into the base game, but just have one generic retinue with a mixture of troops types available.
People who own the DLC are still able to buy all the different types of retinue, including cultural retinues.

Or maybe just make the cultural retinues DLC-only content, and maybe throw in a couple of extra decisions or events for DLC-owners to balance it.
(A decision to keep your cultural buildings if you change coulture, perhaps at a small price, would be welcome.)

That doesn't fix the fundemental problem of needing to balance across a number of systems with/without DLCs. It just transfers the problem to retinue types - as well as open obvious issues like why elephant retinues need LoR if you have RoI. A substantial issue with retinues is how they interact with the combat system.

Basically.

I mean, it's not like any of the pagan religions ever really reformed in that time period anyways.

Also, what's wrong with adding a dead religion to the game? I've seen so many topics about people wanting the Hellenic religion to actually have flavour, and I see no harm in doing so. You speak as if a dead religion appearing in the game wouldn't make any sense. Well, the Cumans reforming Tengri, or Scandinavians reforming the Nordic faith make absolutely no sense to me, yet I still try to do both of those things if I play as them.

They waste dev time which could be spent on other things - its just the other pagan religions, given they have substantial representation in the game, are the obvious example (and reformation has nothing to do with it - default Tengri has zero flavour reformed or unreformed, the others minimal). In fact, no religion 'gains' favor through reformation, they just change CBs (notably gaining holy war, but losing subjegation) - in fact I find reformed pagans generally uninteresting for that reason - their basicly orthodox without the events.

You want stuff for Hellenics? Mod it.

I think the simplest way to find out is have a Plebiscite, all those who have the DLC can vote weather to:
1. Allow Retinues in the base-game for Free
2. Allow Retinues in the base-game with added content for LoR
3. None of the above

Then there can be a poll to decide what should be added if 2 win this vote, simples.

Remember that such a poll only picks up forum goers which isn't a representative sample. What Paradox do is up to them, and will reflect wider considerations. Just leave the question to opinions (and for the sake of the OP, propositions as to what could be added)