Idea: Alternate HRE reforms and Impirial responsibilities

[Rip Off Productions]

The HRE is an interesting system, it makes players approach the game from a whole new angle if they want to keep the emperorship and pass all the reforms to become an insanely strong land power in Europe, but the reforms always felt to ridged to me.

So I think you should be able to pass a wider variety of reforms, and be able to pass them is any order(barring some that would be chained together or had requirements based on tech/ideas/number of other reforms passed, and passing some would disable others).

The cost of IA to pass reforms would variy, and Revoking the Privilegia and Renovatio Imperii requiring a curtain value to IA to be spent, with some reforms not counting towards or even against that requirement.

These other reforms could also be used to more accurately represent your imported CK2 HRE and it's crown laws.

the emperor should also have other things to use IA on/with. such as a slider to spend IA to gain taxes, boost opinion with member states, and other minor advantages unlocked by reforms, such as extra merchants or missionaries(if same faith as emperor), or faster envoy speed between members, and so on.

the emperor should also get a boost with member states when trying to force peace, maybe even having a option to spent IA to boost it even higher, and if they still refuse the emperor should become the war leader when defending a HRE state. This makes the "peace in empire" gain to IA something the emperor can control and be responsible for prior passing the internal peace reform.

the HRE screen should also still be a system after passing Renovatio Imperii, just remove the IA hit for having to few members. This would be used to have diplo-relation slot free subjects, with in your borders, use IA options with outside nations(there should be more that just "return unlawful territory"), and still get those IA point using bonuses.

Of course with all these things to spend IA on there would need to be more ways to gain it/the ways we have get buffed. maybe the IA gained from being elected should be based on how many of the electors voted for you? That would give a reason to get more than what ever minimum is need to grantee reelection(2-3 usually).

 

[magnusvejby]

A reform pyramid could be an option, so you have to take some, but not all to unlock the next tier. But those ideas sounds really fun, and this could open up for many new possibilities in the HRE, to shape the history even more.

And also I think this would work really good together with CK2 HRE, as you have mentioned.

+1

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Thank you, it would also be cool if the AI could chose to join or leave the HRE, the emperor being able to add his vassals to the HRE(so long as they are duchies that border/share sea tiles with imperial provinces), and maybe the ability force a nation to join(costing similar war score to vassalization, starting off cheaper and then going up based on how close you are to a Revoke the Privilegia style reform).

I don't know how the balancing would work, but adding more ways to gain and spend Imperial Authority would be cool, and if there where ways that members would benefit from an authoritative emperor and curtain reforms(members vote on them after all) would make playing as some one besides the emperor fun(as is being anyone besides the emperor is a death sentience as you'll just get eaten if he passes the final reform, or conquered if you left when he Revoked the Privilegia).

and as I said in the first post the variety of reforms would make imported CK2 HREs way more interesting(especially now that the next DLC will be reworking how laws work), and one of the big reason I imagined this idea in the first place.

 

[klinkvon13]

Interesting!

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Interesting!

thanks, I've also had another idea about how the Empire system could be improved:

Make having your capital designated HRE land and being a Principality not be connected(though it should be encouraged), it doesn't make sense that a county that lost a lot of it's land inside the empire to stop being a prince just because it's capital got moved outside, especially in the case of Electors. and it makes even less sense when a nation that owned some imperial land get's beat up and forced to move it's capital inside that it just becomes part of the HRE.

for example I've seen Genoa get kicked out of Italy a few times, but maintain it's holdings in Crimea, so when some one made Savoy spit out an old Genoa core it became unlawful territory... that just doesn't make sense...

There is already a system in place to make Princes who are subjects to non-Princes be counted as being outside the empire, so why not use that for nations that chose to leave the empire, rather then making all their land stop being HRE territory? maybe have the Italian "princes" start like this, with the goal being to get them to rejoin by diplomacy or force before the shadow kingdom event fires?

adding or removing territory from the HRE should cost something, ADM or DIP points maybe? the price can maybe be effected by Imperial Authority, as it rises it's cheaper to add and more expensive to remove. Making the strategy as emeror by passing a reform before adding your new cores a bit less of an exploit.

another thing that would be cool(though honestly this is a big game altering idea that may fit better in a "what would like to see in EU5?" thread):

make multiple HRE-ish style empires exist, making the imperial map mode more useful, working like the regions or culture map modes where each empire would have its detsict color(either the current Emperor's or the color of the fully reformed super-blob-TAG) and when clicked on it would brake down into it subsequent territory types:

Byzantine/Roman Empire:have Constantinople be BYz's only province, the other territory in Greece would be member states(teing into the Theme system maybe?), the cores BYZ currently has would be swapped for "lawful territory" filled with minors to release from the Ottomans). if BYZ falls the empire collapses due to there being no emperor or a way to select a new one. this also makes imported Byzantine/Roman Empires from CK2 more interesting/less bloby.

Chinese/Celestial Empire: basically include the results of the 'Ming-plosion' and make Ming the emperor, losing the Mandate of Heaven triggers a civil war not to dissimilar to the Religious Leagues the HRE has latter, only this can happen multiple times as different dynasties gain and lose the Mandate. this can also be used to represent the tributaries China had.

and exclusively for CK2 imports:
The Caliphate[s? one for each Sunni and Shia?](if they where significantly blobby and top liege like the Abbasids are in the Charlemagne start date), this is more an anti-blobbing feature and I haven't thought about it much beyond that...

maybe these types of Empires could "rival" each other, getting bonuses for holding land they decreed as theirs and giving each member normally rival exclusive benefits against the other empire's members like lower AE and penalty free embargos?

 

[Rip Off Productions]

farther ideas about Princes; they would be able to take a "loyal" or "disloyal" stance toward the emperor, this would be calculated similarly to vassal liberty desire, and heretic princes geting a HUGE boost towards disloyalty unless religious freedom/peace is established.

disloyal princes give a malus to IA gain, and after a few years of disloyalty without the intervention to reign them in and make them loyal again they gain the option to leave the empire(basically allowing for a more dynamic version of the shadow kingdom event), though leaving the empire doesn't instantly remove their territory from the HRE and gives the emperor a CB to resubjugate them(though much like how the emperor can't pass reforms when the leagues are active neither can the disloyal princes leave the HRE).

Disloyal Electors will never leave HRE, but will try to coordinate to get one of your rivals/enemies elected.

another idea tieing into elector behavior is that Imperial Authority can act like prestige, ranging from +100 to -100, with the possibility of driving yourself into the negtives passing reforms eirly, though if you hit -100 IA the HRE will automaticly be disbanded. my idea here is that the emperor gets more IA based on howmany ellectors vote for him, with unaimus ellections by all 7 being enormous even for someone who isn't being reelected, so if IA is far in the negitives(lets say -50 or so) then the elector will start trying to team up and get someone stronger than you to take the raigns.

 

[klinkvon13]

farther ideas about Princes; they would be able to take a "loyal" or "disloyal" stance toward the emperor, this would be calculated similarly to vassal liberty desire, and heretic princes geting a HUGE boost towards disloyalty unless religious freedom/peace is established.

Historically, many were "heretic" because they were disloyal, not the contrary. If it has to be factorized, it should be like this.

 

[Anatur]

One thing i would like implemented is something like "Imperial Reputation".

In the sense that when you beat up a nation in the HRE and force it to release some provinces or a nation then all the HRE nations in its general area(like all of south germany for example) get a huge malus to their willingness to start another war in the next few years,the bigger the loser the longer the malus lasts

Its rather silly when you dismember Bavaria and tear it apart but Augsburg thinks they will get by fine if they do the exact same thing Bavaria did with 5 times more men Augsburg has.

Would help cut down on the redicolus amount of internal HRE wars,im sure there were many in the historical HRE but not THIS many.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Historically, many were "heretic" because they were disloyal, not the contrary. If it has to be factorized, it should be like this.

True, but the way EU4 has religion effect the HRE makes it work the other way around, though disloyal catholic princes should also get a modifier that pushes them to join the Protestant League.

One thing i would like implemented is something like "Imperial Reputation".

In the sense that when you beat up a nation in the HRE and force it to release some provinces or a nation then all the HRE nations in its general area(like all of south germany for example) get a huge malus to their willingness to start another war in the next few years,the bigger the loser the longer the malus lasts

Its rather silly when you dismember Bavaria and tear it apart but Augsburg thinks they will get by fine if they do the exact same thing Bavaria did with 5 times more men Augsburg has.

Would help cut down on the redicolus amount of internal HRE wars,im sure there were many in the historical HRE but not THIS many.

Well a princes' opinion of the emperor is boosted by Imperial Authority, so if they make it so having high Imperial Authority makes princes less likely to start wars, or at least less likely to take land in those wars(humiliate, war reps, transfer trade power, and so on will still be used), this also gives you a reason to not pass a reform because doing so will loosen your grip on the princes' behavior.

In fact tying back to my idea that there should be slider/togglable policies for the emperor to use that spend IA, I think internal peace should be enforceable either early or off the bat, but it is counter productive to use for a long time, until you pass some more reforms to either boost IA income and/or lower the cost to inforce peace.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

So, I'm still thinking about this idea:

Some "optional" reforms being locked behind taking/completing idea groups that I've thought of:

(whenever I say members or Princes get benefits I mean only 'loyal' ones, and the numbers I use are likely not 'balenced' and are just there for showing the basic idea)

---Admin Idea groups---

Spoiler

Administrative: Refined Bureaucracy; -10% stability cost for all members, and -0.1 corruption per year for the emperor.

Economic: Imperial Banking Regulations; -1 interest per annum and -0.1 yearly inflation for all members.

Expansion: Imperial Road Network; all HRE provinces controlled by loyal Princes get +10% movement speed between them and +5% supply limit.

Humanist: Religious Freedom Act; basically religious peace as it is now, it can still be enforced by the Protestant League without needing Humanist Ideas.

Innovative: Scientific Revolution; -10% tech cost for all Members(or maybe just increased institution spread inside the Empire?)

Religious: Enforce Religious Unity; same as current reform, can be enforce by Emperor in the League War without needing the Idea group.

---Diplo Idea Groups---

Spoiler

Diplomatic: Elegant Court; +1 Diplomat for all members, and -10% envoy travel time between members

Espionage: Imperial Security Act; spy network constriction time +40% and forint spy detention +40%(or whatever the numbers would need to be so that the two cancel each other out when Princes spy on each other).

Exploration: Ambitions of a Global Empire; all members get a Colonist and automatically share maps with each other.

Influence: Inheritance Intervention; the Emperor will get an event allowing him to declare a succession war for any prince who falls under a personal union with an outside power when the union is formed.

Maritime: Anti-Piracy Act:

Trade: Imperial Trade Act; all members get +1 Merchant and the Emperor get +10 global trade power

---Mil Idea Groups---

Spoiler

Aristocratic: Imperial Academies; +2 diplomatic reputation

Defensive: Fortification Regulations; +10% Fort defense and -5% fort maintenance for all members

Naval: (I can't think of a good name for this one); +10% naval force limit.

Offensive: Officer Training; +1 Yearly Military Tradition and +1 leaders without upkeep for all members.

Quality: Regulated Arms Manufacturing; +5% combat ability or all unit types land and sea for all members.

Quantity: Imperial Draft; +30% manpower for all Princes, and +5 land force limit for the Emperor.

********

another idea is the incusion of an "Imperial Court" tab, it would work something like the merchant republic Factions or constitutional Parliaments, but would be shared between all members of the HRE.

you'd spend adm/dip/mil points, and maybe prestige or legitimacy as well, to influence Electors to vote for particular nations, make Princes support different reforms, and try to get the emperor's favor.

 

[CharlesII]

I also believe that the HRE should start with some reforms already passed and then as the reformation drags on, these reforms can be revoked, along with any other passed reforms. This should represent that unless a player/bot is particularly skilled in managing the HRE or is just lucky, the HRE eventually becomes decentralized, and when the last reform is revoked (probably a starter reform should be one that lets it exist in the first place), the empire ends.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

I also believe that the HRE should start with some reforms already passed and then as the reformation drags on, these reforms can be revoked, along with any other passed reforms. This should represent that unless a player/bot is particularly skilled in managing the HRE or is just lucky, the HRE eventually becomes decentralized, and when the last reform is revoked (probably a starter reform should be one that lets it exist in the first place), the empire ends.

Well that's what the a loyal/disloyal Princes system would be for, as the game goes on more and more Princes will become disloyal and eventually leave due to things their own power growing, having better relations with nations outside the empire, being Protestant(or Catholic depending on the outcome of the Religious League War) or Reformed, or just loosing faith in the emperor due to him not fulfilling his duties to them.

in my idea Imperial Authority would be more like it's own budget, with income and expenses to manage each month

I was also thinking that IA should be able to go into the negative, this will displease princes and will nearly guarantee that you will not continue being emperor much longer(barring vassalizing/PUing of Electors or making emperorship hereditary), and if you somehow get it down to negative 100 you'd automatically remove the most recent reform/most disliked reform(maybe Prince approval of reforms/laws is saved and can be changed to determine this? or maybe negative Authority will give princes a special CB or two based on how far into the negatives it goes?) and if there are no reforms left when it's at -100 the HRE is disbanded right then and there.

 

[CharlesII]

Well that's what the a loyal/disloyal Princes system would be for, as the game goes on more and more Princes will become disloyal and eventually leave due to things their own power growing, having better relations with nations outside the empire, being Protestant(or Catholic depending on the outcome of the Religious League War) or Reformed, or just loosing faith in the emperor due to him not fulfilling his duties to them.

in my idea Imperial Authority would be more like it's own budget, with income and expenses to manage each month

I was also thinking that IA should be able to go into the negative, this will displease princes and will nearly guarantee that you will not continue being emperor much longer(barring vassalizing/PUing of Electors or making emperorship hereditary), and if you somehow get it down to negative 100 you'd automatically remove the most recent reform/most disliked reform(maybe Prince approval of reforms/laws is saved and can be changed to determine this? or maybe negative Authority will give princes a special CB or two based on how far into the negatives it goes?) and if there are no reforms left when it's at -100 the HRE is disbanded right then and there.

Yeah, I'm hoping that if they continue to make immersion packs, they make one relating to the Holy Roman Empire and perhaps succession laws (say, a better simulation of Burgundy)

 

[Rip Off Productions]

and perhaps succession laws (say, a better simulation of Burgundy)

Well PUs in general would hopefully benefit from a general "succession law" system being added, though that would drift the game into CK2's gameplay niche.

but a HRE focused DLC would be wonderful; adding more provinces and princes would make the region more interesting, even if they didn't change the reforms system to much beyond rebalancing IA gain to compensate for the higher number of princes.

but adding to the idea about IA having a monthly "budget" I think one of the things that you'd be expected to pay for with it would be buffs to princes(possibly broken down by regions? with cost going up based on development? that would give a good reason why Italy doesn't get the treatment it deserves) that improve their opinion of you, but give no benefit to you, and anything that exclusively benefits the emperor(or at least not them) will lower their opinion.

 

[CharlesII]

Well PUs in general would hopefully benefit from a general "succession law" system being added, though that would drift the game into CK2's gameplay niche.

but a HRE focused DLC would be wonderful; adding more provinces and princes would make the region more interesting, even if they didn't change the reforms system to much beyond rebalancing IA gain to compensate for the higher number of princes.

but adding to the idea about IA having a monthly "budget" I think one of the things that you'd be expected to pay for with it would be buffs to princes(possibly broken down by regions? with cost going up based on development? that would give a good reason why Italy doesn't get the treatment it deserves) that improve their opinion of you, but give no benefit to you, and anything that exclusively benefits the emperor(or at least not them) will lower their opinion.

Yeah, a lot of people believe that EU needs to have more mechanics towards the end of the game, especially additions from Victoria, but I feel that the early game is so unrealistic and doesn't really simulate Feudalism or centralization, so if anything, I'd support some more CK2-like gameplay.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Yeah, a lot of people believe that EU needs to have more mechanics towards the end of the game, especially additions from Victoria, but I feel that the early game is so unrealistic and doesn't really simulate Feudalism or centralization, so if anything, I'd support some more CK2-like gameplay.

sure, but at the same time EU4 abstracts so much, that including complicated family trees(where players can see them, I remember reading somewhere that EU4 keeps track of a hidden one) and such would snowball into a massive system that would need to somehow be phased out later in the game(sure Ages can do that, but the only one that makes sense would be the Age of Revolution, which feels a bit to late in the game)

 

[Palando]

I really support improving the HRE with new princes, provinces and maybe also new mechanics. At the moment the HRE nations are quite bland with the exception of Austria and the Pruss.

It would be also nice to have a mechanic representing the various partitions of Saxony, Bavaria, ... As when one looks at a map of the HRE the lands of the Wettiner were completly fragmented.

Maybe adding sth like cadet branches would do the job. The game would need to track of brothers and sisters of your current heir to enable this.
So Germanic nations could get another estate which shares the % of the land required with the nobility (so it would still be only 15% of dev in total). The difference between those would be, that the cadet branch would have 100% autonomy with the exception of manpower, but as long as the estate would be loyal one would get/could raise troops costing no maintenance at all and the number depending on the total dev the estate holds.

Then there should be a possibility to introduce the primogeniture to your country during the age of absolutism. This would change the behaviour and would change the autonomy floor to 10%, but the raised troops would again cost money. (your cadet branch now only governs the province for you; this would enable a bonus to effective dev compared to the nobility estate)
Furthermore, Austria should already start with a reformed cadet branch system, and Bavaria and Brandenburg-Prussia should be able to reform it through events (Dispositio Achilea) or their NIs. Saxony and the Palatinate could get a bonus to this system to make all the bigger nations in the Germanic part of the HRE unique.

There could also be the possibility to make a ruler of a cadet branch your heir through an event at the cost of legitimacy, so the old PU game could still happen, but one would have to consider the possibility of the rise of a cadet branch. If the estate started a coup, the country should spill out some minor tags named after the corresponding province, e.g. Bavaria-Landshut, Saxony-Vogtland, etc pp.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

I think splitting up lands and stuff with some kind of gavelkind system would be a bit to much, maybe having more vassal/PU swarms like Burgundy at the start would be nice, and maybe having the HRE effect integration and liberty desire so they have a good chance of splitting up that way and then reuniting due to their matching dynasties, possibly with special formable tags for those unions.

another idea for HRE to help weaken it as time goes forward; forming kingdom rank tags no longer automatically removes you from the empire, and more kingdom rank nations decrease Imperial Authority income, or maybe AI Princes with Kingdom ranks are more likely to not support reforms, or both?