I think I like where this idea might be going...StephenT said:
Sort of like a rocket test facility; you can manage without component-specific factories, but having them will get things done a lot faster?
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Sort of like a rocket test facility; you can manage without component-specific factories, but having them will get things done a lot faster?
No, that's too specific itself. The Rolls Royce factory would fall under categories 1, 2, 3 and 4 of that list - and I woldn't be at all surprised if their engines were also used on ships too - maybe to power motor torpedo boats? In other words, that particular historical factory produced IC that could be used to build any class of unit whateoever.Cpack said:
StephenT said:
What is your idea of avoiding the possibility to first produce 50 carriers and after that 50 armored divisions?
If any nation can produce 50 carriers in twelve years, there's something wrong. I'm not saying it shouldn't be (theoretically) possible for a fully geared-up USA (or Japan, at a push), but it shouldn't at all be feasible.Cpack said:
mandead said:
It's not about what a nation can produce, what I mean, you can first spend your whole IC on ships, then your whole IC on Army.
That should be avoided.
Perhaps instead of the previous system, maybe you could build engine works, steel works and whatnot, that would increase the speed at which things requiring those components would be built globally...
Of course really all this was pretty well represented with the Gearing bonus, as it was easy enough to reassign most factories (bar the end assembly point) to other, similiar, tasks. We're getting into way too much micro here.
While I don't think basic things like supplies, or infantry weapons should be represented with specific weapons, you could represent historically big industries. For instance shipyards in various provinces, with various levels, each level increasing the global rate at which boats are built, in britain you might have shipyards in say Belfast, or Liverpool.
Of course really all this was pretty well represented with the Gearing bonus, as it was easy enough to reassign most factories (bar the end assembly point) to other, similiar, tasks. We're getting into way too much micro here.
While I don't think basic things like supplies, or infantry weapons should be represented with specific weapons, you could represent historically big industries. For instance shipyards in various provinces, with various levels, each level increasing the global rate at which boats are built, in britain you might have shipyards in say Belfast, or Liverpool.
Small arms factories - What it says on the box, for all divisions but especially inf.
Automotive industry - Vehicles, tanks etc. AFAIK most factories that produced cars/tractors produced tanks during the war. Correct if i'm wrong
Aircraft factories - planes and more planes
Dockyards - Should have several sizes, eachone builds one ship at a time. Small, medium, large sizes sounds nice. Subs,DD's,transports for small, CA's, CL's CVE's, CVL's for medium and CV's and BB's for large.
Equipment/ammo factories - general supplies.
Artillery factories - big guns of various sizes, most if not all divisions would require some.
Sounds very victoriaesque..
Automotive industry - Vehicles, tanks etc. AFAIK most factories that produced cars/tractors produced tanks during the war. Correct if i'm wrong
Aircraft factories - planes and more planes
Dockyards - Should have several sizes, eachone builds one ship at a time. Small, medium, large sizes sounds nice. Subs,DD's,transports for small, CA's, CL's CVE's, CVL's for medium and CV's and BB's for large.
Equipment/ammo factories - general supplies.
Artillery factories - big guns of various sizes, most if not all divisions would require some.
Sounds very victoriaesque..
Why handling several different kinds of IC and convert between them? Let the IC system untouched and add a new element: Assembly Plants.
Each item to build could occupy one (or several) assembly plants while it is being build. The cost of building the assembly plant would represent the cost to adapt industries to certain products.
Possible assembly plant types could be:
- ship building slip
- infantry school
- tank plant
- aircraft assembly plant
A battleship could occupy 5 building slips, a destroyer 1. A carrier could occupy 3 ship building slips and 1 aircraft assembly plant. Imagine what happens, if building slips get damaged by air raids.
Germany could still build a fleet, but not as fast. It would have to build the necessary ship building slips first, something which might need some time to accomplish.
If each assembly plant build would reduce the available manpower in a province by a small margin, it would add interesting strategic decisions to the player, especially when playing such manpower restricted nations as Germany.
IMHO this concept would add the necessity to make some strategic decisions without adding more micro management.
Each item to build could occupy one (or several) assembly plants while it is being build. The cost of building the assembly plant would represent the cost to adapt industries to certain products.
Possible assembly plant types could be:
- ship building slip
- infantry school
- tank plant
- aircraft assembly plant
A battleship could occupy 5 building slips, a destroyer 1. A carrier could occupy 3 ship building slips and 1 aircraft assembly plant. Imagine what happens, if building slips get damaged by air raids.
Germany could still build a fleet, but not as fast. It would have to build the necessary ship building slips first, something which might need some time to accomplish.
If each assembly plant build would reduce the available manpower in a province by a small margin, it would add interesting strategic decisions to the player, especially when playing such manpower restricted nations as Germany.
IMHO this concept would add the necessity to make some strategic decisions without adding more micro management.
Why not just put a limit on how many units of each type can be built simultaneously; e.g. we can have categories:
1. large ships (carriers, battleships)
2. small ships (cruisers, destroyers)
3. aircrafts
4. vehicles
5. small arms
And for each category, only a certain percentage of the IC may be allocated initially. So after not having a navy for years, Germany may decide to build a fleet - but at first, it can only lay down a single battleship.
Then, similar to the gearing bonus, we can have the permissible IC percentage increase slowly whenever you are building a unit of that class. So maybe half way through their construction of the Bismark, the German navy can get enough IC to start building 2 battleships simultaneously. But if it doesn't, then their maximum build rate gets stuck at 2 ships.
This way any arms build up has to start small and work their way up, and we don't have to worry about building specific types of factoris.
1. large ships (carriers, battleships)
2. small ships (cruisers, destroyers)
3. aircrafts
4. vehicles
5. small arms
And for each category, only a certain percentage of the IC may be allocated initially. So after not having a navy for years, Germany may decide to build a fleet - but at first, it can only lay down a single battleship.
Then, similar to the gearing bonus, we can have the permissible IC percentage increase slowly whenever you are building a unit of that class. So maybe half way through their construction of the Bismark, the German navy can get enough IC to start building 2 battleships simultaneously. But if it doesn't, then their maximum build rate gets stuck at 2 ships.
This way any arms build up has to start small and work their way up, and we don't have to worry about building specific types of factoris.
StephenT said:
Yes, the new system would be abstracted. But you know what? Current one is abstracted two, and from a game's point it's a worse abstraction.
One of the important part of the wartime economy was how much and fast you can produce - tanks, ships, aircraft. This isn't represented in the game at all. Your armoured and air units can take horrendous loses - but fear not, in a week or two they will be restored to 100% strenght with... suppilies
:rofl: I'm not even talking about previously mentioned overnight transfromation of the whole industry.
IMO I would went with factories:
Small Arms
Vehicle
Air
Naval
perhaps Suppiles.
StephenT said:
No it wouldn't if we use a victoria style unit building. Meaning that units cost stuff and use little or no ic to produce, the ic is spent stockpiling the components.
Lets say we have types of factories
Automotive
Airplane
Small arms
Artillery
Shipyards
General
For example an armored division would require, ofcourse, large numbers of automotive parts, say 1 part represents 1 truck and 10 one tank, 15 one heavier tank etc. It would also require sigificant numbers of small arms, artillery and general supplies. All specific requirement values come from the specific unit they are assigned to and are decided by the type of tanks equipped, doctrine, national sliders and tech.
One battleship would require large amounts of steel, would occupy one largeshipyard slot (which should be rare enough), 1-2 aircraft, rather large amounts of artillery as large caliber guns were not cheap and easy to produce and large amounts of general supplies.
An aircraft unit uses large amounts of aircraft, the heavier and bigger the aircraft the bigger the aircraft costs. Fighters units, for example cost 100, tac bombers 200, strat bombers 400. Also large amounts of general goods. Tiny amounts of small arms.
Constructing AA consumes large amounts of artillery and some general goods. Forts use up a lot of general goods and some artillery.
All units naturally have MP cost
So to simulate the production for rolls royce you can have five different types of rolls-royce owned plants with no problem.
You get the point I hope. This might be too much micromanagement perhaps, but this is what i would like to see in the end.
Yamamoto?
Isn't Yamamoto a clothing specialist?
The battleship was called Yamato, or have I misunderstood something here?
Isn't Yamamoto a clothing specialist?
The battleship was called Yamato, or have I misunderstood something here?
Van Diemen said:
AFAIK Johan said somewhere that it was still undecided whether it would be IC or factories like Vicky, so there is a possiblity, and seeing that the vast number of posts here support factories and only disagree at the number and purpose of them i hope they will go vickystyle
I hope there will be factories. Not as complex as in vicky, but 4-5 types of industry should be in the game.
If you ask me, there should be tank factories, aircraft factories and shipyards as province buildings. Each level of these factories would allow the country they are in to devote an amount of x IC to the production of said category. The buildings would have to be buildable/improvable and bombable of course. This way you'd have a much better representation of production capabilities without creating too much micro-management.
I always thought the gearing bonus and the Assembly Line techs are already there to represent specification issues?
Just because they're considered "bonuses" from the norm as opposed to reducing existing penalties doesn't mean there isn't already a difference. The Rolls-Royce example is an excellent demonstration of just how flexible can "regular" factories be in the modern total-war economy beyond the Vicky timeline. A different system, the current system, works far better than the proposed alternatives.
It's a lot better to be able to build 50 carriers and then 50 tank divisions, unrealistic as it is, than to not be able to build 5 carriers then 5 tank divisions because I lack whatever "specific" factory types are there, which is also very unrealistic (what? you'd think an entire Armaments Ministry's worth of smart people would find solutions to such simple problems? -- they did, in real life) and unfortunately also frustrating. I am not micromanaging a Vicky economy alongside an HOI-level military detail, thank you very much.
I'd accept alternatives to the current IC system only if it's a "bonus"-type add-on like how the current Assembly Line Techs and Gearing Bonus work in principle, as opposed to rigid limits to what I can do. Reward the players for good micromanagement play, not punish them because they don't want to deal with the hassle of micromanaging too much.
Just because they're considered "bonuses" from the norm as opposed to reducing existing penalties doesn't mean there isn't already a difference. The Rolls-Royce example is an excellent demonstration of just how flexible can "regular" factories be in the modern total-war economy beyond the Vicky timeline. A different system, the current system, works far better than the proposed alternatives.
It's a lot better to be able to build 50 carriers and then 50 tank divisions, unrealistic as it is, than to not be able to build 5 carriers then 5 tank divisions because I lack whatever "specific" factory types are there, which is also very unrealistic (what? you'd think an entire Armaments Ministry's worth of smart people would find solutions to such simple problems? -- they did, in real life) and unfortunately also frustrating. I am not micromanaging a Vicky economy alongside an HOI-level military detail, thank you very much.
I'd accept alternatives to the current IC system only if it's a "bonus"-type add-on like how the current Assembly Line Techs and Gearing Bonus work in principle, as opposed to rigid limits to what I can do. Reward the players for good micromanagement play, not punish them because they don't want to deal with the hassle of micromanaging too much.
Irenicus said:
That's a strawmen. None is pushing for economics system as complicated as in Vicky. That would we, I believe, quite insane. People want some more realism, however.
I'm pretty sure they said industry will be tied to regions like in Vicky, not to provinces.BaronX said:
I think the factory system from Vicky would be perfect for HoI3, but with the added ability to convert certain factories. This would solve player's concerns since you wouldn't be able to use IC for battleships one day and for tanks the next, because both would be produced by different factories, nor would you be able to immediatly switch from consumer to military production, because converting factories would take time and money.
Yet, at the same time, it would also accurately depict how much of a country's IC served all production as your factories producing steel, machine parts, lumber, electronic gear, etc...would be supplying all industries from tanks, small arms and artillery to ships and planes.