iberia pack - decision for asturias convert into castill, leon, etc

[geogus]

Hi guys

just want to know that about the iberia pack.


For the 800's start, will there a decision or mechanism fot the asturias to convert into castille, leon and other spanish kingdoms?

I hate seeing the asturias kicking around until the end of the game....

 

[YellowPress]

It was in ck2 so you wonder why they couldn't do bare minimum in adding these decisions over

 

[Monalba]

Hi guys

just want to know that about the iberia pack.


For the 800's start, will there a decision or mechanism fot the asturias to convert into castille, leon and other spanish kingdoms?

I hate seeing the asturias kicking around until the end of the game....

Does it matter though?
I mean, the kingdom of Leon was just the kingdom of Asturias but with a rebranding.
As they conquered more land to the south, they simply moved the capital to Leon.
So yeah, that can be a decision, but it wouldn't do anything other than change the name, colour and coat of arms. Pretty superficial.
Even the main culture is already called ''Astur-leonese''.

The kingdom of Castille was the result of the kingdom of Leon splitting into two, something that already happens organically within the game.

 

[YellowPress]

Does it matter though?
I mean, the kingdom of Leon was just the kingdom of Asturias but with a rebranding.
As they conquered more land to the south, they simply moved the capital to Leon.
So yeah, that can be a decision, but it wouldn't do anything other than change the name, colour and coat of arms. Pretty superficial.
Even the main culture is already called ''Astur-leonese''.

Except histiography uses the two differently as its easy at a glance to have one mean the United Catholic iberian kingdom vs the slither between galicia and castile with castile increasingly dominant

The kingdom of Castille was the result of the kingdom of Leon splitting into two, something that already happens organically within the game.

Into 3, galicia leon and castile. There's no way to get the 1066 de jure map from 867 atm, as 2 duchy castile isn't recognised as large enough for a custom kingdom
Castile is the result of the duke of castile declaring independence and then being conquered, just like Portugal first appears as an upstart duke declaring himself king then being conquered

 

[geogus]

Does it matter though?
I mean, the kingdom of Leon was just the kingdom of Asturias but with a rebranding.
As they conquered more land to the south, they simply moved the capital to Leon.
So yeah, that can be a decision, but it wouldn't do anything other than change the name, colour and coat of arms. Pretty superficial.
Even the main culture is already called ''Astur-leonese''.

QtThe kingdom of Castille was the result of the kingdom of Leon splitting into two, something that already happens organically within the game.

It matters enough for this to be the most important thing for me in this dlc.
If paradox don't address that i am going to consider this dlc a failure.

May be just a tag and color change for you, for me spoils the immersion of trying to recreate reconquista, surviving first as asturias corned by Muslims, then having fraticidal wars while trying to form spain

 

[Hermerico]

just like Portugal first appears as an upstart duke declaring himself king then being conquered

Elaborate?

You have Nuno Mendes as an "upstart duke" declaring himself independent and being conquered but that is unrelated with the appearance of Portugal, if anything it is the opposite and ended its existence, for while at least.

Portugal first appeared in 868 as an Asturian county, then re-appeared in 1095 as a Galician county (under Léon) and finally in 1139 as an independent Kingdom (and hasn't been conquered ever since)

 

[YellowPress]

Elaborate?

You have Nuno Mendes as an "upstart duke" declaring himself independent and being conquered but that is unrelated with the appearance of Portugal, if anything it is the opposite and ended its existence, for while at least.

Portugal first appeared in 868 as an Asturian county, then re-appeared in 1095 as a Galician county (under Léon) and finally in 1139 as an independent Kingdom (and hasn't been conquered ever since)

After nuno is conquered, King of Portugal is added to the Royal style of the King of Galicia

 

[Hermerico]

After nuno is conquered, King of Portugal is added to the Royal style of the King of Galicia

Thanks for the explanation

 

[Vityviktor]

Does it matter though?
I mean, the kingdom of Leon was just the kingdom of Asturias but with a rebranding.
As they conquered more land to the south, they simply moved the capital to Leon.
So yeah, that can be a decision, but it wouldn't do anything other than change the name, colour and coat of arms. Pretty superficial.
Even the main culture is already called ''Astur-leonese''.

The kingdom of Castille was the result of the kingdom of Leon splitting into two, something that already happens organically within the game.

It matters because it's a historical event that can easily be portrayed with the system of events and decisions that the game currently has.

It also matters besides the aesthetics change because with the Asturian kings settling their "capital" (i.e. royal court) to Leon they manifested their claims over the southern territories (the Duero valley and beyond) across the northern mountain reaches. So this thing could also be reflected in the gameplay.

Into 3, galicia leon and castile. There's no way to get the 1066 de jure map from 867 atm, as 2 duchy castile isn't recognised as large enough for a custom kingdom
Castile is the result of the duke of castile declaring independence and then being conquered, just like Portugal first appears as an upstart duke declaring himself king then being conquered

Exactly. There's no continuity between the 867 and the 1066 start dates in a lot of aspects, and this is one of them. I think a 10th century start date just like Iron Century would contribute to filling the gap between them, but that's another topic.

Things like the brief hegemony of Pamplona/Navarra under Sancho III, and the reign of Fernando I as count (duke in CK3 terminology) of Castile and then king of Leon (with the later division of his realm) would be pretty much impossible to achieve in CK3.

 

[EricMN93]

There is an interesting concept in the Iberian Peninsula during the Middle Ages, the concept of a crown, a "fusion" of various kingdoms into a new one.

Examples:
Castilla's crown

Crown of Castile - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aragon crown

Crown of Aragon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is well reflected in the decision to unite the Spanish thrones.*

*Please change that name. Spain did not exist until the sixteenth century. Besides, Spain represents the union of the crown of Castile and the crown of Aragon, representing all the inhabitants, not only those of Castile.

Suggestion: Unite the Christian thrones of the Iberian northwest

In the game there should be several decisions that could simulate (if the conditions are met) certain historical moments and be able to connect the game from 867 to 1066

I would make the following decisions:

1-Create the kingdom of Leon Who can do it: Kingdom of Asturias Conditions: Exactly the same as the ck2

2-Unite the Christian thrones
Northwest:
Who can do it:
Any kingdom that
come from the kingdom of
Lion
Conditions: The kingdom of
Leon must have
party in several kingdoms

The victorious kingdom has
to retrieve all
kingdoms and the dynasty that has cattle must be
several years in possession of
all titles.

Results:

A) The kingdom of León recovers its borders, the kingdom continues to be called the same.
B) Castile conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Castile is created
C) Galicia conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Galicia-Leon is created (alternative version)

3- Create the crown of Aragon.

Conditions: Have the Kingdom of Aragon, Valencia and the Duchy of Barcelona and that the same dynasty has ruled x years

4- Some decision to represent the supremacy of the county of Barcelona within the Catalan counties.

County of Barcelona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

5-Some decision related to the kingdom of Navarra and the kingdom of Pamplona (something similar to the kingdom of Asturias and the kingdom of León)

Kingdom of Navarre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Vanticus]

There is an interesting concept in the Iberian Peninsula during the Middle Ages, the concept of a crown, a "fusion" of various kingdoms into a new one.

Examples:
Castilla's crown

Crown of Castile - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aragon crown

Crown of Aragon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is well reflected in the decision to unite the Spanish thrones.*

*Please change that name. Spain did not exist until the sixteenth century. Besides, Spain represents the union of the crown of Castile and the crown of Aragon, representing all the inhabitants, not only those of Castile.

Suggestion: Unite the Christian thrones of the Iberian northwest

In the game there should be several decisions that could simulate (if the conditions are met) certain historical moments and be able to connect the game from 867 to 1066

I would make the following decisions:

1-Create the kingdom of Leon Who can do it: Kingdom of Asturias Conditions: Exactly the same as the ck2

2-Unite the Christian thrones
Northwest:
Who can do it:
Any kingdom that
come from the kingdom of
Lion
Conditions: The kingdom of
Leon must have
party in several kingdoms

The victorious kingdom has
to retrieve all
kingdoms and the dynasty that has cattle must be
several years in possession of
all titles.

Results:

A) The kingdom of León recovers its borders, the kingdom continues to be called the same.
B) Castile conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Castile is created
C) Galicia conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Galicia-Leon is created (alternative version)

3- Create the crown of Aragon.

Conditions: Have the Kingdom of Aragon, Valencia and the Duchy of Barcelona and that the same dynasty has ruled x years

4- Some decision to represent the supremacy of the county of Barcelona within the Catalan counties.

County of Barcelona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

5-Some decision related to the kingdom of Navarra and the kingdom of Pamplona (something similar to the kingdom of Asturias and the kingdom of León)

Kingdom of Navarre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To be honest, I think trying to the force the current system to work like the Crowns in the Iberia peninsula is duct-taping over a broken and ahistorical system. I much more interesting and engaging mechanic would be to rework how the game represents feudalism so the concept of a 'Crown' is better integrated. A medieval kingdom was not a unit of territory (despite what a map game might say) but a bundle of laws, rights, and privileges. In Iberia, the 'Crown' was the conduit that connected the monarch to custom, but this applied in other parts of the world outside of Iberia. A dynamic system for creating, losing, and uniting Crowns would enable emergent gameplay that is far more interesting than being forced to pursue strict historicism if you want to see interesting things happen.

 

[YellowPress]

There is an interesting concept in the Iberian Peninsula during the Middle Ages, the concept of a crown, a "fusion" of various kingdoms into a new one.

England has it too where the English crown represents lordship of wales and parts of ireland, with claims to much of modern day france whilst respecting local institutions as the spanish crowns did with leon and castile having seperate cortes

Examples:
Castilla's crown

Crown of Castile - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aragon crown

Crown of Aragon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is well reflected in the decision to unite the Spanish thrones.*

*Please change that name. Spain did not exist until the sixteenth century. Besides, Spain represents the union of the crown of Castile and the crown of Aragon, representing all the inhabitants, not only those of Castile.

The Spains as a geographical concept did exist, hispania was alot more common term than iberia due to the large amount of latin rather greek spoken in the region. Spain as a unitary state is only post war of spanish succession, in part due to Aragon backing the hapsburg candidate possibly out of loyalty and possibly out of hearing of how the bourbons would strip aragonese privlieges

Suggestion: Unite the Christian thrones of the Iberian northwest

Thats extremely wordy so no

In the game there should be several decisions that could simulate (if the conditions are met) certain historical moments and be able to connect the game from 867 to 1066

I would make the following decisions:

1-Create the kingdom of Leon Who can do it: Kingdom of Asturias Conditions: Exactly the same as the ck2

2-Unite the Christian thrones
Northwest:
Who can do it:
Any kingdom that
come from the kingdom of
Lion
Conditions: The kingdom of
Leon must have
party in several kingdoms

The victorious kingdom has
to retrieve all
kingdoms and the dynasty that has cattle must be
several years in possession of
all titles.

Results:

A) The kingdom of León recovers its borders, the kingdom continues to be called the same.
B) Castile conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Castile is created
C) Galicia conquers all the kingdoms, the crown of Galicia-Leon is created (alternative version)

How come galicia gets a split naming? When castile y leon is one of the most famous split naming and arms

3- Create the crown of Aragon.

Conditions: Have the Kingdom of Aragon, Valencia and the Duchy of Barcelona and that the same dynasty has ruled x years

4- Some decision to represent the supremacy of the county of Barcelona within the Catalan counties.

As in free dev for barcelona or what?

County of Barcelona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

5-Some decision related to the kingdom of Navarra and the kingdom of Pamplona (something similar to the kingdom of Asturias and the kingdom of León)

Kingdom of Navarre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Was pamplona navarre that distinct? I thought it was just a reflection of spanish becoming more popular than basque as the court language, along with now becoming landlocked after aragon swiped the southern possessions?

 

[Hermerico]

Should "Crown" be used as the Iberian term for "Empire"?
Assuming the historical outcome of the struggle is the "status quo" outcome, then when the Empire of Hispania is destroyed and all independent Kingdoms become de jure Empires themselves, this would lead to the Kingdoms of Iberia to become Crowns (historical) instead of Empires (ahistorical).
Not sure what the name of the ruler would become, since the ruler of a Crown is still a King. But I'm sure they could figure something out.

 

[YellowPress]

Should "Crown" be used as the Iberian term for "Empire"?
Assuming the historical outcome of the struggle is the "status quo" outcome, then when the Empire of Hispania is destroyed and all independent Kingdoms become de jure Empires themselves, this would lead to the Kingdoms of Iberia to become Crowns (historical) instead of Empires (ahistorical).
Not sure what the name of the ruler would become, since the ruler of a Crown is still a King. But I'm sure they could figure something out.

No because Portugal is never raised to the rank of empire, and the emperor of Hispania is a very niche period of castilian history, Castile also sent no viceroy to rule castile and Leon, only to naples, and galicia was just split between like 3 noble families

If you make the crown of castile into an empire, then the kingdoms of andalucia, leon, castile, and granada, will all be split among various dynasts rather than United in one person

 

[CrabHelmet]

It matters because it's a historical event that can easily be portrayed with the system of events and decisions that the game currently has.

It also matters besides the aesthetics change because with the Asturian kings settling their "capital" (i.e. royal court) to Leon they manifested their claims over the southern territories (the Duero valley and beyond) across the northern mountain reaches. So this thing could also be reflected in the gameplay.



Exactly. There's no continuity between the 867 and the 1066 start dates in a lot of aspects, and this is one of them. I think a 10th century start date just like Iron Century would contribute to filling the gap between them, but that's another topic.

Things like the brief hegemony of Pamplona/Navarra under Sancho III, and the reign of Fernando I as count (duke in CK3 terminology) of Castile and then king of Leon (with the later division of his realm) would be pretty much impossible to achieve in CK3.

I think a fair bit of the problem in CK3 with Iberia could be solved by letting independent Duke-tier rulers of an Iberian culture being titled "Petty King", which is essentially how it worked, and having actual King-tier titles be named after the primary Duchy-title held by the King (or the de jure Duchy of the King's capital county). Then just have de jure duchy drift between Kingdoms double in speed during the Struggle.

This way, Aragon and Castile can both be "kings" during the period of their history when they were independent but not of the size where in CK3 you can form a custom kingdom.

 

[Hermerico]

No because Portugal is never raised to the rank of empire,

And it won't because it only controls 1 kingdom.
It should require you to own at least 2 kingdoms to be raised to Crown status.

(Although Portugal kinda was two kingdoms as well, Portugal & the Algarves, but the Algarves aren't a kingdom in game).

and the emperor of Hispania is a very niche period of castilian history

Empire of Hispania never existed.
The king of *Léon once claimed such a title but it didn't even occupy half of Iberia when it did so, so it's very different from what the Empire of Hispania is supposed to represent (a united peninsula).

 

[YellowPress]

And it won't because it only controls 1 kingdom.
It should require you to own at least 2 kingdoms to be raised to Crown status.

(Although Portugal kinda was two kingdoms as well, Portugal & the Algarves, but the Algarves aren't a kingdom in game).

Algarves aren't a kingdom but they should be considering how ugly the border is with badajoz if you form Portugal

Empire of Hispania never existed.
The king of *Léon once claimed such a title but it didn't even occupy half of Iberia when it did so, so it's very different from what the Empire of Hispania is supposed to represent (a united peninsula).

Thats what i mean, its a claim barely anyone recognised even if he had a tonne of taifas as tributaries

 

[Hermerico]

but they should be

Would be a smaller kingdom than most duchies in Iberia (smaller than some counties even).

 

[YellowPress]

Would be a smaller kingdom than most duchies in Iberia (smaller than some counties even).

Look at Cyprus and crete for how small a kingdom can be, steppe provinces are larger than navarre is

 

[CrabHelmet]

Except histiography uses the two differently as its easy at a glance to have one mean the United Catholic iberian kingdom vs the slither between galicia and castile with castile increasingly dominant

Into 3, galicia leon and castile. There's no way to get the 1066 de jure map from 867 atm, as 2 duchy castile isn't recognised as large enough for a custom kingdom
Castile is the result of the duke of castile declaring independence and then being conquered, just like Portugal first appears as an upstart duke declaring himself king then being conquered

I also meant to say, I think this can easily be fixed. Give Spain a single de jure kingdom in the North, being essentially everything above the Duero river and east of Santander, and call it the Kingdom of [Capital County]. Then have a second de jure Kingdom which is Cantabria, Castile, and the area broadly covered by the Taifa of Toledo.

This second Kingdom will basically never form until the Kingdom of [Capital County] has done a lot of conquest, so for all the period 867-1066, it doesn't do anything, which is good, because the Kingdom of [Capital County] never really split up during that period into separate kingdoms.

Fernando de Navarra is not recorded as using the style King of Castile when he first acceded to control of Burgos and the surrounds. In fact, the Historia Silense specifically records Fernando being made Conde de Castile (what would be in CK3 a Duke-tier title), rather than Rey. He used the title of king the first time after he'd already been crowned in Santa María de León, at which point he was crowned King of Leon, Galicia, and Castile as just a general list of all the places he was king of, rather than separate kingships. No need for Kingdom of Castile.

The only slight complication is the situation vis a vis his children, and I'm going to suggest something slightly quirky: in CK3 terms, this should simply be seen as a series of civil wars within the same kingdom. If Sancho II was King of Leon and Duke of Castile, Alfonso VI was Duke of Leon, and Garcia was Duke of Galicia, then in CK3 terms: Alfonso declares a War against the Tyranny of Sancho II, but the war peters out into a white peace. Sancho then declares a war to revoke the Duchy of Garcia, which he wins. Garcia is banished. Urraca's assassination plot fires, Sancho is killed childless and Alfonso inherits everything. This means there's no need for separate Kingdoms again. The situation only lasted about 6 years, after all, before all the disparate parts came back together, and Alfonso and Garcia styling themselves "kings" is just as much a claim to the Kingdom of Leon than it is anything else. Again, only retrospectively can this be said to have been something more than a civil war and CK3 needn't affirm that kind of retrospective narrative.

This is consistent with the historical record. For example, Alfonso referred to himself as Adefonsus rex Legionis et totius Hispanie imperator. Note that despite the historiographical record highlighting the fact he was King of Castile, once he'd united his father's realm again he refers to himself solely as King of Leon; Castile is dropped by the wayside. It's only retrospectively because of the dominance of Castile that Alfonso is written as being King of Castile first and foremost, or King of Castile and Leon rather than King of Leon (and Castile and Galicia and Asturias etc).

The first time you get a permanent split forming between Castile and Leon which last more than a few years is on the death of Alfonso VII. However, by now the original Kingdom has grown so considerably it covers in CK3 two de jure territories, and so a split can happen and does.