I would like to see a scandinavian focus tree in the next dlc.

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ThaHoward

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How is Finland tied with the other nations? Finland was not affected by the German invasion of Norway. Norway was not affected by the Winter war.

Sweden did play a part in the German invasion, as the iron ore trade with Germany was the reason WW2 reached Scandinavia. This aspect, aswell as Sweden allowing German troops to cross the border, could give a player some interesting choices in a focus tree.

And Finland not being part of Scandinavia is not semantics, whatever that entails.

I don't know, Finland being to the east of Norway plays a small role.

Cold War Soviet strategy dictated a mechanized thrust through Finland and into the Tromsø area, because of the shit logistic situation in Norway.

USSR entered Finnmark, Norway, because the Germans there threatened Soviet lines. The Soviets did not push further into Norway, because of the supply situation could not allow it once Finland peaced out (and of course focusing on Berlin). If all of Finland got conquered by Soviet Union either during the Winter War and Continuation War, it is plausible Norway and even Sweden could have been "liberated" as Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.
 

alexman

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finland had 700k soldiers fighting from 41-44 vs ussr germany had 200k troops in finland
1602591146208.png

finland took to the offensive and marched into east karelia securing the lakes and pushing on leningrad.
finland was an official ally of nazi germany.
 
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finland had 700k soldiers fighting from 41-44 vs ussr germany had 200k troops in finland
View attachment 641027
finland took to the offensive and marched into east karelia securing the lakes and pushing on leningrad.
finland was an official ally of nazi germany.

Agree, Finland is important. And what happens there naturally affect the other nations in Fennoscandinavia. Big part of Sweden serving the Germans was due to them being encircled; Finland an ally of Germany, Norway and Denmark under occupation.

Norway being allied or invaded by the Allies could open up for them supporting Finland (unlikely, but they had plans for it), Norway and especially Sweden sent volunteers to Finland. Norway or Sweden could take an alternative route and help them out even more. Just the fact that these nations border eachother, two of them the USSR, and their geo-political location (iron ore, port to the Atlantic, threatening to cut off the Murmansk lane) make them intertwined and what happens in one country affects the other. E.g. if Norway is liberated then Sweden could join the Allies or embargo Germany. Also Sweden trained Norwegian "Police Troops" ready to invade Norway (and they did) which was essentially the Norwegian Army in exile, along with other exiled troops in UK.
 
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I don't know, Finland being to the east of Norway plays a small role.

Cold War Soviet strategy dictated a mechanized thrust through Finland and into the Tromsø area, because of the shit logistic situation in Norway.

USSR entered Finnmark, Norway, because the Germans there threatened Soviet lines. The Soviets did not push further into Norway, because of the supply situation could not allow it once Finland peaced out (and of course focusing on Berlin). If all of Finland got conquered by Soviet Union either during the Winter War and Continuation War, it is plausible Norway and even Sweden could have been "liberated" as Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.

I fail to see how what happened in 1944 and the cold war is relevant.

The point is there is no reason to include Finland in a Scandinavia DLC, as the political situation in Finland differs greatly from Scandinavia. Furtheremore, what happened historically doesn't make it natural to include Finland. Finland fought the Soviet Union on two occasions. Norway was invaded by Germany, who later allied with Finland.

And lastly: Finland is not part of Scandinavia.
 
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ThaHoward

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I fail to see how what happened in 1944 and the cold war is relevant.

The point is there is no reason to include Finland in a Scandinavia DLC, as the political situation in Finland differs greatly from Scandinavia. Furtheremore, what happened historically doednt make it natural to include Finland. And lastly: Finland is not part of Scandinavia.

1944 is relevant to WW2. The Soviet invasion plans in the cold war is relevant, as it was the same plans then as in 1944. The political situation of all the Nordic countries are different, but they are intertwined. It is a more natural pack than UK, USA, Mexico and the Netherlands.

By that logic the battle of bosphorous should not have picked the nations it did, their political landscape differ even more. However they are intertwined due to their geo-political situation and great power ambition.
 

kimidf

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This is not entirely true since the Russo-Finnish war triggered the interest of the Allies and the Germans in the Scandinavian countries, gaining strategic interest that led to a race between the Germans and the Alliesensure your controlIn a certain way,

Finland could be grouped with the other Scandinavian countries like Denmark, although surely the developers separate them into two different contents as they have done with the Balkans
I personally do consider Finland as part of the concept of Scandinavian countries
 

Olanov

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It is an important factor because language matters and words have meaning. This is fundamental to have any productive discussion.

Now, of course this has nothing to do with the scope of DLC's, of course you could make a DLC including all sorts of countries, they don't need them to be part of the same "cathegory" but simply own the fact that the dlc is about Scandinavia AND Finland. Instead of trying to bend the meaning of words.

Yes, I was speaking in scope of the DLC's. A strictly Scandinavian DLC is unlikely (soon anyway) considering the likelyhood of the next update and the fact we are already getting a standalone country pack right now.

Why I'm as willing to refer to Finland in Scandinavia is because of the fact in English language it's so common, making the distinction becomes rather semantic. Most foreign people don't know and even people that do end up rolling with it. It's just easier ;)
 
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finland killed over3000 tanks and inflicted 2 million casualites on ussr it wasnt a small incursion
Not only does your source claim it was only ~900k casualties, the entire Soviet Force on the battlefield doesn't even come close to your casualty claim. Perhaps not even half as much.

What sort of mental gymnastics is going on in here?
 
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ThaHoward

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Not only does your source claim it was only ~900k casualties, the entire Soviet Force on the battlefield doesn't even come close to your casualty claim. Perhaps not even half as much.

What sort of mental gymnastics is going on in here?

The casualties of the winter war on that meme is highly inflated. Still Finland played a role in WW2.

I think a Soviet rework with a Finnish focus tree, Baltic shared tree and/or Polish rework might be next. Sweden, Denmark and Norway will likely be a country pack. Or it might be Soviet, Fnland, Norway and Sweden.

Wether or not Finland is Scandinavian (they are not) really aren't that relevant when discussing potential focus trees for Nordic and Scandinavian nations.
 
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Given the interactions between them it would make sense to make Sweden alongside Finland.
 

Hoi Neuling

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I think there is comming an Tree for Skandinvavia, because of the 2 or 3 Winter Wars with Finnland, the Assistance for Finnland from Sweden and last but not least Norway (which is important for Germany).

On the other Side, it could be a an material for an other medium Patch and DLC like that we getting in 2 Days.
 

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Finland was not affected by the German invasion of Norway.

Not during the Norwegian campaign, neither immediately after it, but the German invasion of Norway had a decisive effect in 1940-1941 about Finland's status changing under the German sphere of influence after being in the Soviet sphere of influence earlier.

After Germany occupied Norway, the Finnish options - between Germany and the Soviet Union - were very limited. After the Winter War the Soviet Union continually laid pressure on Finland, simultaneously the German influence highly increased in Scandinavia, on the western and northern neighboring countries of Finland. In summer 1940 Germany renewed its earlier repulsive attitude towards the Finns while linking Finland for the coming eastern expedition, Barbarossa.

Between two major powers Finland made concessions for the both which was due to the Finnish assumption that the lack of domestic human and material resources wouldn't be enough to maintain neutrality in the near future. With only a few economic options and an urgent need for national defense, plus the hope of a revanchism war against the Soviet Union were the main reasons why Finland converged with Germany in 1940-1941.

The German occupation of Norway had a great significance and affected largely the Finnish politics, the Finnish foreign relations, foreign trade, limiting Finnish own choices under German supervision. Finland signed a transit-agreement with Germany which enabled German troop transfer from Norway to Finland. While the Baltic Sea was closed, the only Finnish port for foreign trade was Liinakhamari in Petsamo region. After the German forces entered the Finnish Lapland, they also influenced Liinakhamari and regulated the Finnish trade. Also an indirect consequence of the German invasion of Norway was the Lapland War between Finland and Germany 1944-1945.
 
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Finland is easily the most important of the Nordic countries to get a focus tree, considering the stature (as a minor nation) of its role in WW2 (compared with other minor nations). Norway is the second, and (with no offence to their nationals) Sweden and Denmark a distant third. Having said that, I think all three will get individual trees eventually. The question is how to group the four (then) independent Nordic states.

There could very likely be new "gimmicks" when new packs of countries get released; such as the border wars of the Chinese Warlord states, the license manufacture of the Central European states, the updated puppet functionalities of the British Commonwealth etc.

So therefore I think it would make sense to think are there "gimmicks" that you could apply to these in common?

My idea is to keep the three Scandi countries together, perhaps add some odd bird in there - Ireland? Belgium - another deserving inclusion for a focus tree BTW! - and the "Neutrality" gimmick. Give them decisions etc. to balance between nations engaged in warfare (Sweden has the most historical opportunities here, but Norway has the early war maritime minelaying and captive soldiers etc.), and perhaps collaboration decisions should they get conquered? Ireland would fit the balancing act Neutrality theme as well. The challenge is to make that exciting for the player... Perhaps an additional Diplomacy rework focus?

For Finland, I would group her with Soviet rework (maybe Italy as well), perhaps the Baltics as well? Their war efforts are tied together. As different as these countries are, I am thinking maybe of the air rework here? Kind of an aircraft builder similar to the ship builder from MTG? Soviets had some legendary airplanes with large amount of variants that vary from the standard baseline quite a bit (IL-2, the Flying Tank for example. Both it and the Stuka are CAS aircraft but quite different. There was also even a torpedo bomber variant...) Finns had actually a pretty great little air force, and though they never did truly win air superiority over the Russians, they performed great feats with several models other nations considered lemons. Fun fact: the highest scoring non-German ace was a Finn... And this would also fit Italy I think, they had some good airplane models (also some terrible dogs). Would be fun to model all those three engine bombers etc.

Naturally, the tank builder rework would fit Soviets even better, but Finns and Italians didn't really shine with those things and I'm thinking collective themes here... :)
 
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Shaka of Carthage

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alexman

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just for fun sweden is the strongest and best for forming nordic league as nordic league u can reallu stand on ur own vs majors. u get enough manpower and mils. i alwaus go for it