I will not complain about Garrison MP for Germany anymore

[Mentatt76]

Over 1.7 mn troops were assigned as occupational forces during 39-40, I was always complaining about how HOI4 was over-inflating Garrison forces and losses in the game but, what can you do against facts:

German Occupational Forces, 1939-1940
Country	Population	Area In SqMi.	German Forces
Balkans	21 million	403.000	200.000
Belgium	8 million	30.400	100.000
Denmark	3.6 million	22.700	40.000
France	40 million	550.700	500.000
Holland	8.5 million	34.200	100.000
Poland	35 million	102.000	630.000
Norway	2.8 million	324.000	150.000

 

[Fulmen]

A sizable portion of which were in roles not represented in HoI4. I find myself reminding people quite often of the fact that roughly 40-50% of real-life manpower sinks don't exist in HoI4, hence why national manpower figures are also lower in the game.

 

[Harin]

A sizable portion of which were in roles not represented in HoI4. I find myself reminding people quite often of the fact that roughly 40-50% of real-life manpower sinks don't exist in HoI4, hence why national manpower figures are also lower in the game.

This is so true. The US Army used approximately 5.6 million people to man 91 divisions. Obviously, most of that personnel were not in the combat units, but were supporting units far from home. There was another 2.4 million in the US Army Air Force making about 8 million total.

 

[Dlin369]

Would HOI4 be better served if other manpower sinks were represented? Like manpower for supply lines and convoys? I think it'd be a cool idea, but it might also strain the AI even further when it comes to manpower management

 

[Harin]

Would HOI4 be better served if other manpower sinks were represented? Like manpower for supply lines and convoys? I think it'd be a cool idea, but it might also strain the AI even further when it comes to manpower management

I have wondered that very same thing @Dlin369. For one thing, since the US needed so many people to support the combat divisions thousands of miles away, representing that support manpower sink could help shrink the division spam later in the game and to represent how difficult it was to operate so far from home. Seeing Japanese divisions in Norway might happen less if those divisions required a lot more manpower to support them at that distance.

Of course it would all have to be balanced in some way, but the current manpower pools allows countries to field twice or more the divisions they actually did during the war.

 

[fallgelb22061940]

Do not talk about the Balkans like that. They had 200000 soldiers in there, but that wasn't enough. HoI4 shows you the values for completely suppressing the region, which was impossible in real time. Also, 200000 soldiers and still the most successful resistance activity, that is powerful resistance. And also collaborators which are helping the Germans. They are the only Eastern block country that wasn't occupied by Soviets and liberated itself, unlike the Poles and Czech.

 

[Kryndude]

Do not talk about the Balkans like that. They had 200000 soldiers in there, but that wasn't enough. HoI4 shows you the values for completely suppressing the region, which was impossible in real time. Also, 200000 soldiers and still the most successful resistance activity, that is powerful resistance. And also collaborators which are helping the Germans. They are the only Eastern block country that wasn't occupied by Soviets and liberated itself, unlike the Poles and Czech.

No one said anything about the Balkans what are you talking about?

 

[fallgelb22061940]

No one talked anything about the Balkans what are you talking about?

He said that for Balkans it was needed only 200000
That was not enough for an hilly terrain like this
It was needed much more than that
HoI4 shows how much will you need to be able to suppress resistance, and 200000 wasn't enough, so it shows much more than historically. They should balance that still, because it is not real to lose 5 millions just as garrisons, but you shouldn't look at historical numbers because that was not enough

 

[Louella]

No, the OP just says how many were assigned. Not how many were "needed" or if that was enough to "suppress resistance". Just numbers for how many were historically allocated.

 

[Eisscrat]

The Balkans were steamrolled from 6-23. April 1941. How there can be 200.000 occupation forces in 1939-1940?

How the "Balkans" can have 400.000 squaremilles when ex yugoslawia and greece combined have 256.000km² so 98.000sqmi?
And "france" (Vichy? Free? Ocupied? Colonies?) 550.000sqmi when continantel france has acording to wikipedia 544.000km² so 210.000sqmi

Looks like your table is messed up badly.

Sources please!

 

[Gort11]

Keep in mind a lot of people in the "population" column are five years old, or eighty, or sick in bed.

Only a fraction would be suitable to join a resistance movement.

 

[Mentatt76]

The Balkans were steamrolled from 6-23. April 1941. How there can be 200.000 occupation forces in 1939-1940?

How the "Balkans" can have 400.000 squaremilles when ex yugoslawia and greece combined have 256.000km² so 98.000sqmi?
And "france" (Vichy? Free? Ocupied? Colonies?) 550.000sqmi when continantel france has acording to wikipedia 544.000km² so 210.000sqmi

Looks like your table is messed up badly.

Sources please!

Easy Tiger, slow down. The source I use does not draw a map or precisely check the area but those figures are given in an excel table. But I have to give you a credit here; France can not be 550K sqmi as it would be too big. I assume there is a unit error there, it should be in sqkm. Yet again its too big. I think it should be corrected as 250K sqkm (or 120 sqmi) as Vichy had its own forces and the land Germans had to cover was around half of original France.

On the other hand if we get back to the original topic without getting stuck on the details, there is a huge MP assigned in RL to cover these areas. And one should not complain about how garrison drains their MP. On the contrary I believe HOI4 is doing a great job simulating Garrison needs.

 

[Eisscrat]

If the table has wrong dates and areas of ocupation then i would not realy trust the numbers of the stationed troops.
Also the timeframe is importend. When 1939 there are 600.000 men in western poland. Is this weeks or month after the invasion? Sure they are there. The conquered this land. Are the also there in may 40 when the wehrmacht rolled into france and the troops were needed there.

I searched for exact numbers of losses by partisans and resistancefighters but its hard to get accurate numbers. Especially the 40-45 numbers help not much. Most of the sucesfull uprising happened when allied Armys were near like D-Day or 44 in the east when whole Heeresgruppe Mitte collapsed.

So how much resistance could hurt when the armys winning at all fronts in a hoi4 game and no foreign powers can supply and coordinate them.

 

[Mentatt76]

If the table has wrong dates and areas of ocupation then i would not realy trust the numbers of the stationed troops.
Also the timeframe is importend. When 1939 there are 600.000 men in western poland. Is this weeks or month after the invasion? Sure they are there. The conquered this land. Are the also there in may 40 when the wehrmacht rolled into france and the troops were needed there.

I searched for exact numbers of losses by partisans and resistancefighters but its hard to get accurate numbers. Especially the 40-45 numbers help not much. Most of the sucesfull uprising happened when allied Armys were near like D-Day or 44 in the east when whole Heeresgruppe Mitte collapsed.

Well, I would love to hear more information from your side. Why don't you get us the accurate figures?
I would be able to correct my table above this way.

 

[Eisscrat]

Well, I would love to hear more information from your side. Why don't you get us the accurate figures?
I would be able to correct my table above this way.

As i said sadly i have no numbers.

 

[Orlunu]

Seems like a rather bizarre flaw in the OP - stating that this data shows the accuracy of current garrison casualty levels, where the data does not in fact indicate or claim to indicate anything about the casualty rates of these garrison forces.

 

[Androbey]

Taken from Wikipedia:

• Metropolitan France (IGN)	551,695 km2 (213,011 sq mi)[V] (50th)

Also The Balkans is an area that consists of multiple countries and parts of countries.

• 
  Albania: 28,749 km2 (100% of total land)
• 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina: 51,180 km2 (100%)
• 
  Bulgaria: 110,993.6/[36][37] according to other sources 111,002 km2[38] (100%)
• 
  Kosovo[a]: 10,908 km2 (100%)
• 
  Montenegro: 13,810 km2 (100%)
• 
  North Macedonia: 25,710 km2 (100%)

Mostly or partially within the Balkan Peninsula:

• 
  Croatia (southern mainland): 24,013 km2 (46%)[39][40]
• 
  Greece (mainland): 110,496 km2 (83.7%)/ according to other sources 106,247 km2[41] (80.5%)/ 126,023 km2 including islands adjacent to the Balkan Peninsula (95.5%)
• 
  Italy (Trieste and Monfalcone): 200 km2 (0.1%)
• 
  Romania (mainland Dobruja): 11,000 km2 (5%)
• 
  Serbia (Central Serbia) 51,000 km2 (65%)
• 
  Slovenia (southwestern part): 5,000 km2 (25%)
• 
  Turkey (European part): 23,764 km2 (3%)

A quick survey and a quick analysis: just change the Area heading to km2 and it would be fairly close..

 

[Mentatt76]

Seems like a rather bizarre flaw in the OP - stating that this data shows the accuracy of current garrison casualty levels, where the data does not in fact indicate or claim to indicate anything about the casualty rates of these garrison forces.

OP was not about the casualty levels in the first place. It's actually funny how it come to this.

 

[BlueTico]

How much of this manpower was made up of local forces though?