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Galarel

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If you had bothered to read my second paragraph, you would have seen that Medieval World War N and repeating is also my primary grievance with the mechanic.

Besides that my 'funny' tactic works and it is even more gamey than you think. You just ignore 90% of the enemies, form a doom stack and assault your way through 2 to 6 counties (depending on war target realm size) thereby ending the war in a year or two. You don't even have to wait for your levies to reach the target, now that Pikemen retinues storm castles like a boss.

Keep in mind that this is NOT a factor in favor of the mechanic, because it shows that a) Infamy doesn't even achieve what it was meant to do and b) the United Nations of 900A.D. are just plain silly as a concept.

I did read your second paragraph. I agree your tactic might work at some situations. There a lot of more gamey tactics that come to my mind but they are all just exploiting weakness of war system. Im angry because we are forced to use gamey tactics to play this game with those new "experiments". Thats why im angry. I dont want to argue with you I want to prove that stupid coalition mechanic is just complete crap so maybe someone who took part in creating this madness maybe will think over it. My God, its medieval times and we are just trying to do a blitzkrieg tactic like Hitler during WW2 just to exploit stupid coalition mechanic.
 
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Audoucet

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What makes me kind of happy is that 2.5, is probably what CK3 will look like.

It makes me happy, because it will gather a very very different audience of hardcore gamers, and PDX will be punished by the eternal whine-storm about game balance, game difficulty, and multiplayer balance.
 
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Silversweeeper

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Something that saddens me is that a lot of nerfs have created their own problems. To name a few, we have:

- The pre-RoI faction wars allowed both sides to call in allies but led to some ludicruous event troops spawning and allowed foreign realms to try to take land from individual revolters. A possible solution would have been to nerf the event troops (that requires two lines of code per spawn_unit command), disallowing war declarations within a month of starting another war (which probably would have been possible to adapt from the EUIV system or could have been scripted with character modifiers), and allowing the revolters to call in one another if they get attacked. Instead we got the temporary titles that prevent the revolters from calling in foreign powers and that make it all but impossible for smaller realms to take advantage of a civil war nearby as the AI won't attack what it percieves as a numerically superior foe.

- Pre-CM, it was possible to choose between many weak vassals, which were individually weak but harder to please in general, and vassal kings that were a bit upset over being vassal kings and more of a threat but that were easier to keep track of. Instead of a nerf to general vassal opinion and opinion from piety/prestige, we got the vassal limit, which is an arbitrary number that makes it as bad to have a count as the one vassal over the limit as it is to have a king over the limit, and the chance for vassals to break free with zero consequences if you happen to end up above this number and die. It also encouranges setting up the realm so that you can raise a large number of levies in the same province even though it makes no sense for all the levies from Britannia to appear in Sinai because the king of those kingdoms have a random county in Sinai.

- Pre-Conclave alliances were possible to avoid for a small prestige hit and the loss of some opinion, while not being 100 % certain. The prestige hit could have been scaled somehow (e.g. loss of 2 years of monthly prestige instead of a flat -25 prestige), and all allies could have gained a stacking negative opinion modifier vs. the ruler refusing a call to arms (unless that ruler was involved in another war or had a good excuse (such as being allied to both sides or the war being fought over their de jure land or titles they also have claims on)), but instead we got allies that always come to help you even if they are unneeded, have their own problems, or have interests contrary to aiding their ally in that war.

- Blobbing has always been relatively easy if you know what you are doing. It could have been made more difficult by lowering the efficiency of having a large realm somehow (lowering income/levies from non-demesne provinces to e.g. (0.5 +0.5*exp(-kx)*100/y)*[tax from a specific vassal] (x being number of vassals and y being distance between capitals, k a non-negative constant <1) would make large realms with many vassals gain less from distant expansion than a small realm with few vassals expanding closer to home), adding a cooldown between declaring offensive wars, and making it possible to offer to join (defensive) wars just like you can join holy wars, but instead we got coalitions (or pacts, as they now are called), which many feel are unrealistic (in various ways; some don't feel they are suitable for the era, some don't like cross-religion alliances, and some don't like that they don't really take into account where you have been expanding as much as they take into account how much land you have gained). They are still being tweaked, but it currently feels like they mainly slow down blobs (which probably makes the more stable) and bring with them new balance issues (something I feel was made clear when there was a dev reply suggesting that the proper way to fight them was to use favours (which are DLC-exclusive) and gamey tactics (conquering land and releasing it to burn infamy)).


CK2 used to allow for varying degrees of roleplaying and blobbing based on the player's preferences, but it feels like arbitrary limits have been added to stop a percieved problem (blobbing) and the roleplaying additions haven't made up for this and have been extremely unbalanced in several instances (e.g. seduction).

A lot of the stuff that has been removed o changed could have been kept the way it was and left it up to the player to decide if/when they wanted to use it (with those playing multiplayer games agreeing beforehand that e.g. the assassination button was off limits). Sure, the devs might find some mechanics exploitable when it comes to achievements (even though the initial Ironman version allowed you to get a lot of achievements with these mechanics), but it is annoying to see that more or less working mechanics are replaced with mechanics that don't work better in all respects.


Tl; dr: There have been a lot of changes that haven't always been an improvement, and a lot of exploitable mechanics were up to the player to use (or not) and could have been fixed less arbitrarily.
 
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Monphat

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The only reason why everyone blobs in CK2 is because there is nothing else to do. If the game from the very beginning was designed with more focus on RPG-elements and internal mechanics, there would be whole other avenue of expansion for a player as well as viable goals other than a world conquest. Instead Paradox made CK2 more and more of a classic strategy, simultaneously encouraging players to play it like a classic strategy ala EU where the end goal is explicitly stated as conquering as much land as possible...

...then they realized that it's not the way it should be and that Medieval blobbing ruins the game, but instead of fixing the problem in a right way (adding proper roleplay/internal management mechanics or making significant changes to the AI at least), they did the same thing that caused the blobbing problem in the first place: they added even more arbitrary strategic mechanics.

Player does not want to be thwarted by mechanics, it's as simple as that. Either add proper opponent into a game by AI improvements or make blobbing less interesting by adding other, more interesting stuff into the game like proper technology research or proper court system or whatever.
 
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Taipan

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I came here today to start a thread on just how disillusioned I have become with CK2, and find a five page thread already here. A number of posts echo how I feel about the game in it's present form so I'm not going to repeat what others have already stated better than I could ever do. I played the original Crusader Kings & it's expansion and bought CK2 the day it was released and I have a scary amount of time invested into this game. DLC's are meant to add interested to an old game but alas for me the last few DLC's have been pushing me further and further away from the game.

Everyone has seen the picture of that once beautiful woman that has had far too much plastic surgery? As she gets older she has a tuck here, a lift there. And then a nose job is done. Square the chin. Raise the eyes. Tighten the skin. She still thinks she is beautiful but everyone looking at her knows she isn''t. This is the present position of CK2. A once beautiful game which has become ugly and no longer entertaining. All the current developers think they are making wonderful additions to the game with these DLC's, but they are not. For every good addition there is two negatives, and with Conclave I am honestly struggling to find one positive. Really the developers need to go back to the start, remove all the plastic surgery of the DLC's and just play an in-house game of this once beautiful game how it was at release and then maybe (hopefully) understand why the beautiful vanilla game of CK2 was so popular.
 
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FifthMonarchy

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To add to the above I've said before that these piecemeal changes always throw something else out of balance as there doesn't seem to be much play-testing beyond the specific new features - often little things like changes to troop type weightings not being reflected in mercenary costs but all adding up to throw the game experience out of kilter.
 
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SnowHawkKiller

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The only reason why everyone blobs in CK2 is because there is nothing else to do. If the game from the very beginning was designed with more focus on RPG-elements and internal mechanics, there would be whole other avenue of expansion for a player as well as viable goals other than a world conquest. Instead Paradox made CK2 more and more of a classic strategy, simultaneously encouraging players to play it like a classic strategy ala EU where the end goal is explicitly stated as conquering as much land as possible...

...then they realized that it's not the way it should be and that Medieval blobbing ruins the game, but instead of fixing the problem in a right way (adding proper roleplay/internal management mechanics or making significant changes to the AI at least), they did the same thing that caused the blobbing problem in the first place: they added even more arbitrary strategic mechanics.

Player does not want to be thwarted by mechanics, it's as simple as that. Either add proper opponent into a game by AI improvements or make blobbing less interesting by adding other, more interesting stuff into the game like proper technology research or proper court system or whatever.
This is so true, but I have a feeling that the devs don't understand the concept that the customer is always right with the road they've been heading down lately. I just wish they would step back and whole heatedly listen to the community because as much as they say they are, they really aren't.

Everyone has seen the picture of that once beautiful woman that has had far too much plastic surgery? As she gets older she has a tuck here, a lift there. And then a nose job is done. Square the chin. Raise the eyes. Tighten the skin. She still thinks she is beautiful but everyone looking at her knows she isn''t. This is the present position of CK2. A once beautiful game which has become ugly and no longer entertaining. All the current developers think they are making wonderful additions to the game with these DLC's, but they are not. For every good addition there is two negatives, and with Conclave I am honestly struggling to find one positive. Really the developers need to go back to the start, remove all the plastic surgery of the DLC's and just play an in-house game of this once beautiful game how it was at release and then maybe (hopefully) understand why the beautiful vanilla game of CK2 was so popular.
This is a perfect analogy for what CK2 has become. I really wish the devs would pay more attention to their fan base rather than only skim ideas off the top of it.
 
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chandl34

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I had a great Semien 769 game going on 2.4.5 that unfortunately ended with constant crashes. I talked to support, and they said it would be fixed with the next patch. Unfortunately, Paradox decided to not release the bug fixes separately, so I can't finish that game without these new features. I'd really rather they kept major mechanics changes 100% part of DLC, so I can opt out of them while still receiving bug fixes.
 
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SnowHawkKiller

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I had a great Semien 769 game going on 2.4.5 that unfortunately ended with constant crashes. I talked to support, and they said it would be fixed with the next patch. Unfortunately, Paradox decided to not release the bug fixes separately, so I can't finish that game without these new features. I'd really rather they kept major mechanics changes 100% part of DLC, so I can opt out of them while still receiving bug fixes.
I had the same issue, I was running a Saxony formation of Scandinavia game and after taking Italy in a Great Holy War the game would crash after I unpaused it and the support also promised that it would be fixed with the next patch. Little did I know what was really in store for the next patch though...
 

Stoltverd

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Crusader Kings II used to be my favorite game, but recent changes have made me feel forced to launch the game in my library; like when you buy a game you don't like but you're trying to get your money's worth. I used to enjoy playing Ironman because I liked having achievement to show off for one of my favorite games. But the addition of coalitions, shattered retreat (although I've become "used" to this), and forced call to arms has made me hate this game and I think its generally not fun anymore. Before anyone asks, I'm currently playing with the latest beta patch 2.5.2 and coalitions are still not fun. I still end of sitting there for hours waiting for a coalition to tick down which at 100% takes 40 years. This game isn't deep enough to have you sit there and twiddle your thumbs for 40 years. If CK2 had a very complex internal management system then maybe this would be okay, but the point here is that there's absolutely nothing to do for 40 years which even on five speed is a couple hours. If threat is going to be viable at all, there needs to be some caps for threat gain. Vassalization should give half the threat that conquering something gives since its peaceful and not warmongering. The cap for conquering should be something like County 10% >>> Duchy 20% >>> Kingdom or Higher 50%. This would work well and by the way the 5% threat threshold is too low, it should be higher and 50% threshold for co religious coalitions is too low as well >.>

i think it's fun and challenging HOWEVER, i think you are right in that it needs thinkering. You have a GREAT idea there.
And the decay... well, it needs to be faster.
 
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heliostellar

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As stated in the latest DD, a new DLC is being planned.

Really?

The game is a mess, but they still are planning a DLC. This is almost rude!

The same exact thing happened after CM. It was CTDing constantly, and they went and released WoL before they even fixed CM.
 
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Monphat

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This is so true, but I have a feeling that the devs don't understand the concept that the customer is always right with the road they've been heading down lately. I just wish they would step back and whole heatedly listen to the community because as much as they say they are, they really aren't.

Well, at the end of the day, it's all about money. If a product is not going to sell well or in the worst case turns out to be a financial disaster even the proudest of the proudest are going to listen. Conclave ratings and sale drops because of bad reviews, even if it's not even DLC itself that is to blame, sure is heard at Paradox office now.
 
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SnowHawkKiller

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Well, at the end of the day, it's all about money. If a product is not going to sell well or in the worst case turns out to be a financial disaster even the proudest of the proudest are going to listen. Conclave ratings and sale drops because of bad reviews, even if it's not even DLC itself that is to blame, sure is heard at Paradox office now.
I sure hope so, but they unfortunately still don't appear willing to admit that they screwed up with forced Call to Arms and Coalitions.
 
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raistlin_wizard

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I remember when we asked for "expansionless" wars, aka revenge wars, save daughters from concubinage... And what did we recieve? The Save from captivity option from Way of Life. Not what was expected.
 
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Chunakun

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I'm several generations into an aggressively expansionist run as the ERE and have had not one rebellion, nor any wars against defensive pacts, though they have certainly formed from time to time. The game you guys are describing sounds frustrating and I hope it turns around for u uyou - I honestly don't know what I'm doing differently that's resulting in such a better experience.
Playing as ERE you start with some ofcthe best lands and laws. Generally you will have equal troops (or more with retinues) than your vassals. Try playing germany or france. You will see some fireworks. With germany I am now at my 6th increase council power rebellion and the only reason i am still in power is because i consoled the great company as my vassal.
 
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Ilevus

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Glad to see so many people in agreement. I hope the Devs actually look into these valid complaints and do something. No one in my social group plays CK2 anymore; we went from playing it every weekend together to just stopping entirely. If Paradox thinks this is a good DLC/patch, they're getting rather detached from reality.
 
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