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Thanks a bunch! Zooming on desktop caused the rest of the forum UI to bug out so its much appreciated
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I very much dislike the flag occupation.
- Thread starter MyLordFellington
- Start date
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Posting for visibility because flag occupation is awful, and for some reason silence is taken as consent here.
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Flag occupation is still much better than stripes for seeing at a glance what's going on and who is occupying what, which is the most important thing about visualizing data.
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Here to note that this is still nonsense, that people have always been criticising flag occupation for the exact reverse reason and getting much more support than the handful that inexplicably defend it, and that I'm also one of those still very much hoping for it to be changed.
Sad we're still here. Hopefully if diplomacy or warfare is the focus of the next big mechanics overhaul we'll finally get this corrected then. Very tired of hearing nothing and the apparent expectation being that all is well unless an ancient thread keeps getting bumped.
Please get on this, it seems such an easy mistake to fix.
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Not even 10 minutes before being Star Seeker'd! Oof.
Unfortunately a red "X" doesn't change the distribution of reactions all the way back through this thread. People don't like this change, most of them don't think it makes sense, and it's okay to acknowledge that not everything about this game is perfect.
Unfortunately a red "X" doesn't change the distribution of reactions all the way back through this thread. People don't like this change, most of them don't think it makes sense, and it's okay to acknowledge that not everything about this game is perfect.
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After all this time playing the game I still find flag-occupation rather ugly and I'd much rather just have the lines.
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I too, am once again asking for Paradox support in changing the flag occupation design.
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To everyone who says flag occupation is a "better way to visualize data" than stripes:
Which country do you think is occupying country "C" based on this map?
How about this map?
Which country do you think is occupying country "C" based on this map?
How about this map?
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I've been trying to avoid the argument as much since it's more subjective and therefore probably harder to argue to the devs, but I do personally wonder at how anyone ever looked at it and thought "yeah, this fits in with the aesthetic". Whether you look at the living map or the paper one, it clashes horribly either way. Neither style has any reason to have giant flags painted on the ground so occupation ends up sticking out like a sore thumb.
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Ask Wiz...he's responded on multiple occasions saying that he "likes the way it looks"... he said at one point he'd consider adding stripes back as an option I think? Or maybe that was a hopeful dream. But that was back in pre-release, so I guess it ain't really on his radar.
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In this thread he even mentions that (click show only dev comments) though the last thing mentioned was back 3 months ago.
I think that the problem we ran into is that they saw CK3 as a resounding success in all things and copied from there. I can see in CK3 where striped occupation fails as there can be multiple layers of wars (subvassal - subvassal, vassal-vassal, vassal-external, vassal-liege, liege-external). In the CK series I feel that they need more differentiation but not in EU4 or Vic3.
Oh, and by the way Devs, I still don't like flag occupation even after playing more since the last time I posted that I don't like this.
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The thing is, striped occupation fails in EU4 and Vic2 as well, not just CK. It can be very difficult to tell what country is occupying where if two countries have very similar colors, or if a separated territory like an island is being occupied by a power that isn't right next door. It's telling that the supposed counterexamples supporting striped occupation graphics are always extremely simplified and would be unambiguous no matter the visualization, like those here:
and not the situations that might actually come up in-game such as those I mentioned that designers do need to take into consideration when visualizing data. It's also telling that these examples never use actual in-game showings and only use again very simplistic and highly contrast colors with no texture overlay as you would see in the actual game, nor do they ever use the zoomed in Vic3 overlay of the living map. A better case to analyze would be something like in EU4 a Scotland and Castile occupying each other's colonies in the Caribbean.
It says a lot that with just looking up Victoria 3 screenshots on google, you can immediately tell this is a Scandinavian occupation before you even figure out where in the world the screenshot is taking a picture of. That's simply not something you can do with striped occupations and shows the relative ease of visualization of the flag occupation.
and not the situations that might actually come up in-game such as those I mentioned that designers do need to take into consideration when visualizing data. It's also telling that these examples never use actual in-game showings and only use again very simplistic and highly contrast colors with no texture overlay as you would see in the actual game, nor do they ever use the zoomed in Vic3 overlay of the living map. A better case to analyze would be something like in EU4 a Scotland and Castile occupying each other's colonies in the Caribbean.
It says a lot that with just looking up Victoria 3 screenshots on google, you can immediately tell this is a Scandinavian occupation before you even figure out where in the world the screenshot is taking a picture of. That's simply not something you can do with striped occupations and shows the relative ease of visualization of the flag occupation.
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Can you??? I identified the Scandes before I worked out the flag. I've stared at it for nearly a minute and I still don't know who the left hand combatant is for sure.It says a lot that with just looking up Victoria 3 screenshots on google, you can immediately tell this is a Scandinavian occupation before you even figure out where in the world the screenshot is taking a picture of. That's simply not something you can do with striped occupations and shows the relative ease of visualization of the flag occupation.
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I don't recognise that flag as a Scandinavian one, and I am Scandinavian! Turns out that when you repeat a flag in some weird pattern over and over again, it loses all sense of coherence or recognisability.
The only reason I can tell that this is between Sweden and Finland is because I recognise the geography.
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Yes. Even when it was smaller on the google image search page, I could tell it was a Scandinavian occupation. It's certainly a lot more distinguishable as to what country it is than just random blue stripes would be.
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Looks more like a bad choice of bathroom tiling than an occupationThe thing is, striped occupation fails in EU4 and Vic2 as well, not just CK. It can be very difficult to tell what country is occupying where if two countries have very similar colors, or if a separated territory like an island is being occupied by a power that isn't right next door. It's telling that the supposed counterexamples supporting striped occupation graphics are always extremely simplified and would be unambiguous no matter the visualization, like those here:
and not the situations that might actually come up in-game such as those I mentioned that designers do need to take into consideration when visualizing data. It's also telling that these examples never use actual in-game showings and only use again very simplistic and highly contrast colors with no texture overlay as you would see in the actual game, nor do they ever use the zoomed in Vic3 overlay of the living map. A better case to analyze would be something like in EU4 a Scotland and Castile occupying each other's colonies in the Caribbean.
It says a lot that with just looking up Victoria 3 screenshots on google, you can immediately tell this is a Scandinavian occupation before you even figure out where in the world the screenshot is taking a picture of. That's simply not something you can do with striped occupations and shows the relative ease of visualization of the flag occupation.
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This does bring up another point in favor of flag occupation in Vic3 though, and with a case I just saw in an observer game I'm running now. And that is protectorates, dominions, and other subjects. The UK was at war with Oman, and both them an the British Raj were occupying parts of Oman. Since the British Raj is a subject of the UK, under a striped occupation, both would have the same stripe color since protectorates have the same color as their overlord, and you would be completely unable to tell that multiple countries were occupying territory. However, because of the flag occupation, it was immediately noticeable that not just the UK was occupying Oman.
And this isn't an uncommon issue. I've seen it plenty of times with cases like the US and Indian Territory occupying Mexico, Spain and the Spanish Philippines occupying parts of the East Indies, or the Netherlands and Dutch East Indies (and even the Dutch East Indies' protectorates) occupying parts of Indonesia. In all of those cases it would be impossible to tell at a glance that anyone other than the US, Spain, or the Netherlands has occupied territory.
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Visual clarity and actually giving information to the player is more important to information design than aesthetics.
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