I thought Medium Crown Authority stopped vassals from waging war against each other

[yezhanquan]

You're absolutely required to protect them from each other. It's called "keeping the king's peace" and all that junk.

Now, how that actually plays out is a matter of power politics. But if you can't, in general, keep them from fighting each other, you're a laughingstock of a liege.

In Project Balance, the King's Peace is mentioned, but vassals hate you if you try to implement it, strangely enough. No King's Peace give a minor opinion boost, so I take it that they want a free hand on each other's lands, and I, as a liege, am there to tend to the fence.

Well, as long as my vassals give me the troops I want, I would want to have a word with those who are laughing....

 

[BritNavFan]

Just because a video game does x or y does not mean that x or y is realistic.

As long as your vassals give you the troops you want? They'll have fewer troops to give you if you've been letting them fight each other. (At least in real life, in video games it can be different.) Those are YOUR troops you're letting them waste. Well, I guess they're not actually YOUR troops, because if they were your troops, you wouldn't let other people destroy your property, would you?

BTW, until recently it was a crime in countries like Britain and Canada to suicide. And do you know who the crime was considered to be against? The King. Because your life was the King's property - he could have you killed, and that would be legal, but you're vandalizing his property if you commit suicide.

 

[yezhanquan]

Well, that is over there, although in Singapore, suicide is illegal. For what reason, I do not know.

I think it's true that in CK2, if your vassals are fighting wars, you get less levies from them. But, if you fight an outside threat, the levies used in the civil war will be hostile to the external foe. Found that out the hard way after bumping into retinues of enemy vassals and not having my warscore go up.

 

[Beagá]

Well, they still fight to depose their liege or to install another one that has claims or the liege wants to revoke a county and so on ans so forth.

Medium crown authority only forbids them to wage war over claims, like a count fabricates a claim on another county and conquers it.

Just look, what the wars are about.

Also, plots and failed arrest attempts also mean wars even with high authority. And failing arrests is one of the few "safe" and quick ways to expand your land in places like the ERE. I love to piss off my vassals and give a big reason to arrest them

 

[barny]

Yeah, all the people, who wants to end ALL wars between vassals completely, forget, that you can also be the vassal that WANTS to wage war, to make the game more interesting.

 

[Talq]

The three particular ways the 'can't interfere with vassal wars mechanic' gets on my nerves
1) difficulty changing succession law (so, i can't change to primo because count such and such and duke so and so are fighting somewhere, and i cant do anything about it?)
2) factions directed at your children or wife. (Somehow I doubt anybody in medieval times would expect the king not to take an interest if someones plotting to disinherit his heir without his say so. In fact, I expect they would expect the upstart to be made to suffer quite a bit).
3) factions to give your lands to a foreigner. I've seen at least two faction wars to give a title to a foreign king. Both failed, but I suspect a successful war to lead to me losing that land. That that could happen and I can't interfere is ludicrous (and no, a claim point blank isn't good enough. I'm not fighting the HRE or a king across the board just because some halfwit counts pressed a claim against one duke.

Yeah, all the people, who wants to end ALL wars between vassals completely, forget, that you can also be the vassal that WANTS to wage war, to make the game more interesting.

...and they can make increasing crown authority harder. Several ways to skin that cat.

 

[gamer42_au]

Surely a Crown authority high enough to stop vassals declaring war in general should be enough to give the liege the option (but not the obligation) to intervene in combats between vassals.
There should be a relationship hit (and disinclination for AI to respond), so that it is relatively rare at Medium Crown Authority, but more common at High and Absolute.

Historically outlawing private war meant exactly that in several realms.

And you should be an ally of your direct family (wife, father, mother, brothers, sisters, children) so you can intervene in wars against them, whatever the crown authority.

 

[barny]

...and they can make increasing crown authority harder. Several ways to skin that cat.

That is not part of their discussion. Sure, you could change the whole balance of the system, but that is not, what a lot of people (that obviously have never played anything other than a king) seem to want.

 

[gamer42_au]

That is not part of their discussion. Sure, you could change the whole balance of the system, but that is not, what a lot of people (that obviously have never played anything other than a king) seem to want.

I have played Count and Duke. And I agree that at high/absolute Crown authority they would be less interesting - but that is how they should be, if you opt for a safe kingdom to be inside (maybe vassals should oppose increases in Crown Authority more fiercely).

In that situation, you should either be angling to the top job (e.g. enforcing a claim on the King/Empire title) or else starting/joining a faction to lower authority.

 

[heliostellar]

When I was a vassal, I couldn't declare war against another vassal in the same realm at all unless the Crown Authority was Limited or lower. At Medium, High, and Absolute, I was completely unable to wage war against other vassals. The "Declare war" button was greyed out, and mousing over it showed a list of requirements, with a red "X" in the box labeled "Vassals allowed to wage war on each other".

I don't know if this is WAD or if it is a bug. What I noticed is that if for instance a count is revolting against his duke liege (who is a direct vassal of mine), then the count or duke can call in a ally in my realm to assist him. This can make it look like vassals are attacking each other but they are really just helping each other against revolts.

Something tells me that this was a bug introduced in one of the patches. I'm playing as Tuscany and I cannot war for any claims on Medium authority and I was pretty sure I was able to in the past.

 

[Beagá]

Yeah, all the people, who wants to end ALL wars between vassals completely, forget, that you can also be the vassal that WANTS to wage war, to make the game more interesting.

Definitedly. Have fun trying to play on an ERE with absolute authority. Can´t wage wars even versus infidels. And good luck destroying those 20k stacks...

My game as doux of Athens and stuffz is pretty stalled because the bloody emperor has 26 (?!?!) diplo and established Absolute on 1122. Sure, there is a faction to lower authority, which I joined because the emperor was busy helping ANOTHER emperor (yes, HRE and ERE allied) versus the fatimids (who else could it be?) because HRE had created Jerusalem earlier after crusade. The heir had 22 diplo, again, another bastard almost impossible to get people to hate. Sure enough, plot power only 105% because everyone loves the guy, off we go - to be spanked.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Everyone liking the Emperor makes for a stable realm, this is historical and, well, good gameplay even if it can make life as a vassal difficult. You can always... hasten succession along if you feel it's necessary. There's also your Chancellor's Sow Dissent mission, and there should probably be a "Discredit" plot. That said, having differing thresholds for faction joining could help with that as well.

 

[barny]

I have played Count and Duke. And I agree that at high/absolute Crown authority they would be less interesting - but that is how they should be, if you opt for a safe kingdom to be inside (maybe vassals should oppose increases in Crown Authority more fiercely).

In that situation, you should either be angling to the top job (e.g. enforcing a claim on the King/Empire title) or else starting/joining a faction to lower authority.

You know, I normally start as a count, to built my own realm and because it is more fun to rise to power instead of starting in power. I start in bigger realms, because, they are more interesting to play around in in my opinion.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Getting back to fighting within the Kingdom... It is difficult to say that the King's rule stating "no fighting" can't be broken by an individual who is already breaking other rules by revolting against his liege in the first place (to start the fight)...

The change they could make fairly easily would be to allow the King to wade into the fight on the side of whichever vassal he decides to support. To be honest that fact that the game actively prevents this seems fair more unfair to the player (and artifcial) than their vassals getting into fights even if they make a "rule" saying they shouldn't fight...

I guess it is a case of game balance as it may make creating a stable realm too simple. However you could always give opinion modifiers as a result of getting involved. Support a "sub-vassal" against a vassal (his liege) and get a significant malus for all your vassals. Fail to support a vassal when requested and suffer malus. You could also grant a malus against a vassal (applying to all other vassal's opinion of him) if he requests his liege to join his conflict with a sub-vassal reflecting that he was too weak to defend himself against his own vassals...

In these circumstances you could get involved to get all the fighting in your realm sorted out, but there would be consequences for interfering.

 

[Zireael]

Yeah, and the King or Emperor can do nothing about it except twiddle his thumbs (and possibly assassinate a claimant, if it's a claimant faction war). This may be WAD, but desperately needs to be changed (as does the non de-jure vassals ignoring the laws of the guy they just got conquered by bit).

I agree completely.

And you should be an ally of your direct family (wife, father, mother, brothers, sisters, children) so you can intervene in wars against them, whatever the crown authority.

I agree, too. Currently, you can have your son or wife put forward by a faction and can do nothing about that.

 

[zorkman]

I have also noticed how the vassals are constantly attacking each other despite having high crown authority, & thought it was maybe a bug in the game, particularly as my game started with a much earlier patch, but after reading this now know this isn't the case, and is due to the faction process that was added. I started as a Count, then Duke of Iceland, & was able to gain land in the first 150 years, then once the country had high crown authority couldn't do this anymore, and the game became boring until I became the liege of Norway.

I agree with the comments about how this makes a bit of a nonsence of what crown authority you have, as the factions are seperate, but think Paradox are right in doing this, as the game as a count & duke is now alot more playable, with more to do, which I like, and expect this is why they made this decision.

 

[BritNavFan]

Yeah, all the people, who wants to end ALL wars between vassals completely, forget, that you can also be the vassal that WANTS to wage war, to make the game more interesting.

Actually, I'm fully aware of that. I just disagree with you that that sort of game play makes the game better.

 

[Divi]

Actually, I'm fully aware of that. I just disagree with you that that sort of game play makes the game better.

Except no amount of crown power in this time period ended private warring; Henry II managed to make it hold only so long as his sons weren't old enough to get lords to follow them; that's about it.

 

[barny]

Actually, I'm fully aware of that. I just disagree with you that that sort of game play makes the game better.

When exactly is "nothing happens at all" better for the game?

 

[unmerged(494787)]

When the AI makes completely illogical decisions for rebelling. Of course, part of the problem is that vassal kings don't have their own crown law unless they're outside the empire de jure, so the vassals have no other factions to make other than claimant factions - and the AI doesn't take into account whether the new king would be any better, they just revolt in order to revolt. I've had a collection of dukes in Sicily revolt to place a claimant on the throne, win, then promptly revolt against the person they just installed in order to place a third person on the throne. Not even a month had passed.

The AI has a hard enough time maintaining realm stability the way it is. Allowing high CA AI to intervene in vassal wars will probably cause them more problems rather than less if opinion penalties to the people being intervened against is properly implemented.