I thought Medium Crown Authority stopped vassals from waging war against each other

[Extreme Unction]

AND YET.

When my dynasty was part of the Seljuk Sultanate, I couldn't launch wars against other vassals of the Seljuk Sultanate unless the crown authority was Limited. If it was Medium or higher, I couldn't start a war with other vassals (though I could start wars with external nations).

Now that I'm the Kingdom of Mesopotamia all by my lonesome, I set crown authority to Medium.

And my vassals are still attacking each other.

What gives?

 

[Hibernian]

Frankly I don't understand this either, I have Absolute Crown Authority and yet they're still constantly killing each other.

 

[barny]

Well, they still fight to depose their liege or to install another one that has claims or the liege wants to revoke a county and so on ans so forth.

Medium crown authority only forbids them to wage war over claims, like a count fabricates a claim on another county and conquers it.

Just look, what the wars are about.

 

[Extreme Unction]

Medium crown authority only forbids them to wage war over claims, like a count fabricates a claim on another county and conquers it.

Just look, what the wars are about.

When I was a vassal, I couldn't declare war against another vassal in the same realm at all unless the Crown Authority was Limited or lower. At Medium, High, and Absolute, I was completely unable to wage war against other vassals. The "Declare war" button was greyed out, and mousing over it showed a list of requirements, with a red "X" in the box labeled "Vassals allowed to wage war on each other".

 

[panda_Express12]

I don't know if this is WAD or if it is a bug. What I noticed is that if for instance a count is revolting against his duke liege (who is a direct vassal of mine), then the count or duke can call in a ally in my realm to assist him. This can make it look like vassals are attacking each other but they are really just helping each other against revolts.

 

[Talq]

90% of them are:
1) count starts faction to replace duke. Count will have c100% of dukes numbers.
2) count sends duke ultimatum. Dukes says no.
3) therefore war, therefore allies can be called.

The faction system pretty much bypassing crown authority is WAD (unless Paradox patches it later) but infuriating.

Plot to revoke also ignores crown authority (duke tries to revoke country in de jure duchy via plot, gets 80% but count says no => war)

The rationale is that crown authority only slops fighting among your vassals, the vassal of a duke that is your vassal is not your vassal (although to add to the confusion, they become your direct vassal when the war starts).

Also vassals with any territory outside your de jure territory may be operating under lower crown laws (Italian landholders get to ignore HRE crown laws for this reason.)

 

[barny]

When I was a vassal, I couldn't declare war against another vassal in the same realm at all unless the Crown Authority was Limited or lower. At Medium, High, and Absolute, I was completely unable to wage war against other vassals. The "Declare war" button was greyed out, and mousing over it showed a list of requirements, with a red "X" in the box labeled "Vassals allowed to wage war on each other".

At least not in the normal way and not against another vassal at your level at least. When you are a count for example, and you fabricate a claim on a county of another count in the same duchy, then you can't declare war against him (and the AI can't either). But you still can declare your independence, depose your liege, press demands of a faction and so on. As I said: Just look, what the wars are about. It has always worked that way in CKII and a lot of people never understood it.

Medium+ authority only prevents some of the wars (basically expansion wars), not all the other possible reasons for war.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Yeah, and the King or Emperor can do nothing about it except twiddle his thumbs (and possibly assassinate a claimant, if it's a claimant faction war). This may be WAD, but desperately needs to be changed (as does the non de-jure vassals ignoring the laws of the guy they just got conquered by bit).

 

[unmerged(462833)]

There are few situations when vassal are fighting each other. For example, if there is a count who is revolting against his liege - Duke. In this situation both of them may call allies to war, Crown Authority didn't prevent it (what is really annoying). Different situation is when vassals are in de jure which got lower than medium crown authority. For example, I had Kingdom of Khwarizm and Khiva and I captured Duchy of Merv which was de jure of Persia - Kingdom that didn't exist. But there was defeated Seljuk who had only few provinces but he had Empire title created which was reffering to Duchy of Merv. In this way I couldn't stop Merv from attacking others, couldn't even revoke his title (Antonomous vassals was implemented in Empire)

 

[arothuris]

Yeah, and the King or Emperor can do nothing about it except twiddle his thumbs (and possibly assassinate a claimant, if it's a claimant faction war). This may be WAD, but desperately needs to be changed (as does the non de-jure vassals ignoring the laws of the guy they just got conquered by bit).

Just wonder how I would react when I'm pressing my or a dynasty member's claim through faction when CA wont let me do it directly, and my king/emperor send an envoy and tell me, "u either stop fighting or u will fight with MY army!" I think I probably will tear my hair out hmy:

Yeah, its annoying seeing your vassals fight when u manage to get ur CA to medium or higher. But since I usually get the throne this way, guess I will have to live with it. Or maybe they should overhaul the entire system completely?

 

[smeggy]

Afaik the CA only limits the pressing of claims. The healthy good old revolting and people who somehow dont want tobe imprissioned still results into a sunday afternoon @ some 3th league football match.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

I do think the Faction system needs an overhaul - as it currently stands, the AI seems inclined to push random claims rather than try to lower CA - which should be the most common by far. You should also be able to create factions for other law changes. I can imagine a Feudal Tax Exemption Law Faction would probably be rather popular, although the AI almost always uses that law. Another help would be to make all factions default to the top liege. So for example, you as a count want to press your claim to your duke's title. You would be able to convince other Dukes under the same liege to help you out or at the very least help convince the liege to remain... neutral. Of course, this means people would have to be able to sign up for more than "Support unconditionally". The Top Liege would, of course, have the decision to interfere, support, or mediate, causing war/relations penalties where appropriate.

And, of course, factions should be influenced by CA.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

.... (although to add to the confusion, they become your direct vassal when the war starts)...

This is something I think should change, I think the should not become your direct vassal simply because they are revolting against their liege (at least until the win depending on what they are fight over)...

However it is probably a hangover from the revolt and general war mechanics (and thus a change would require a much bigger change in the underlying mechanics, i.e. too big to do possibly). As soon as a revolt begins the "revoltees" are effectively independent (from their direct liege) and the only way to get them back is to win (they surrender) anything else leaves them independent (of their direct liege again) or worse...

A thing to be aware of when you hold multiple Kingdoms (even as an Emperor) is that the crown law can be different in the different Kingdoms... it took me a while to work that one out...

 

[yezhanquan]

This is something I think should change, I think the should not become your direct vassal simply because they are revolting against their liege (at least until the win depending on what they are fight over)...

However it is probably a hangover from the revolt and general war mechanics (and thus a change would require a much bigger change in the underlying mechanics, i.e. too big to do possibly). As soon as a revolt begins the "revoltees" are effectively independent (from their direct liege) and the only way to get them back is to win (they surrender) anything else leaves them independent (of their direct liege again) or worse...

A thing to be aware of when you hold multiple Kingdoms (even as an Emperor) is that the crown law can be different in the different Kingdoms... it took me a while to work that one out...

If I'm not mistaken, your crown laws for the empire you're holding will automatically apply to its de jure kingdoms. Other kingdoms do have their own crown laws, as mentioned.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

If I'm not mistaken, your crown laws for the empire you're holding will automatically apply to its de jure kingdoms. Other kingdoms do have their own crown laws, as mentioned.

Edit: Oops.. didn't read what you wrote.. ...

Thanks for the correction...

 

[Francis II]

This is something I think should change, I think the should not become your direct vassal simply because they are revolting against their liege (at least until the win depending on what they are fight over)...

I think if you don't have this, then they'll have no liege and would be independent. It's awkward, but I think it's just the game's way of showing that the count is fighting his duke, but not at war with his ultimate liege lord, the king.

 

[BritNavFan]

Yeah, its annoying seeing your vassals fight when u manage to get ur CA to medium or higher. But since I usually get the throne this way, guess I will have to live with it. Or maybe they should overhaul the entire system completely?

It's designed this way (even though it's utterly anti-realistic) so that you can get the throne this way. If you couldn't fight like this as a vassal, playing as a vassal would be very limited, as you would never be able to control armies.

What's really annoying? Playing as the Byzantine Emperor, your wife is one of your vassals, when she gets involved in one of these wars and is on the losing side (and she will, it's only a matter of time), she'll be blinded, and there will be nothing you can do about it.

For me, it's a game-breaking feature. (Hello.... the whole point of the feudal system was that when your vassal gets attacked, you are obliged to defend them.) What gets me is that Paradox are SO insistent you must play this way that they won't even let you mod it out.

 

[yezhanquan]

It's designed this way (even though it's utterly anti-realistic) so that you can get the throne this way. If you couldn't fight like this as a vassal, playing as a vassal would be very limited, as you would never be able to control armies.

What's really annoying? Playing as the Byzantine Emperor, your wife is one of your vassals, when she gets involved in one of these wars and is on the losing side (and she will, it's only a matter of time), she'll be blinded, and there will be nothing you can do about it.

For me, it's a game-breaking feature. (Hello.... the whole point of the feudal system was that when your vassal gets attacked, you are obliged to defend them.) What gets me is that Paradox are SO insistent you must play this way that they won't even let you mod it out.

I don't think you are obliged to defend them from each other, only from external threats. Vassals may like their liege individually, but they hate each other's guts and won't want their liege to take sides.

 

[BritNavFan]

You're absolutely required to protect them from each other. It's called "keeping the king's peace" and all that junk.

Now, how that actually plays out is a matter of power politics. But if you can't, in general, keep them from fighting each other, you're a laughingstock of a liege.

 

[Malibu Stacey]

You're absolutely required to protect them from each other. It's called "keeping the king's peace" and all that junk.

Now, how that actually plays out is a matter of power politics. But if you can't, in general, keep them from fighting each other, you're a laughingstock of a liege.

Sadly the game doesn't give any method of implementing that and actually actively discourages this since you can't join their wars or discourage them from starting/joining factions which are against anyone other than yourself.