I think there should be some use for Unity after you've bought all the Traditions.

[SrGrvsaLot]

Well, most of my post is in the title. I realize this is kind of a niche concern, because how many people are going to play small empires for so long that they run out of things to spend Unity on, but that happened to me in my last game and it was kind of a bummer because so much of my building choices were based on maximizing Unity gain.

I'm not sure what that use would be, exactly. Right now I'm thinking of something like a 6th, repeatable tradition that is unlocked by completing an entire tree and provides a lesser effect that is somehow related to the tree's theme (like, I don't know, maybe Prosperity's repeatable tradition would give you a 1% energy boost). And if there was some way that these repeatable traditions could unlock Ascension Perks, that would be ideal. It definitely feels weird to be a pacifist empire and complete the Supremacy and Domination trees.

 

[Shermanator]

Yes, definitely needed.

 

[Secret Master]

There is something to this.

As a Hive Mind that eats everyone, the Harmony and Diplomacy trees are largely pointless.

 

[Hyomoto]

As I put in my thread, I don't think you should reasonably be expected to max out all the trees. I do think Unity should 'fizzle' out at some point, where you can still pick up some tradition bonuses to make use of the Unity you can't get rid of, but eventually your heritage sites are going to become mines, power plants and laboratories. It's really, as one might say, the price of progress that heritage is lost.

And as I also discussed, I think the main problem with traditions is they are tied to ascendancy. Everything you do should contribute to ascendancy, not just maxing out your tradition trees. Bottom line is it works okay as it is, but there is definitely room for improvement.

 

[The Danish King]

Wiz pointed this out in the stream last thursday after I asked about it. He might have adressed it at some other time as well. Yes, they/he wants to have some use for unity once you have filled out every tradition tree, but they are not sure what excatly it should give at this point.

So, there will probably be something put in down the line.

 

[Hyomoto]

This only worked in Civ because you could spend faith on other stuff as well. If you could buy a battleship or power plant, maybe but honestly resource management is the weakest part of the game since it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to get ahead of it. Consumer goods is nice, but it hardly put a dent in my bottom line. The problem is that most resources are really only strategic in the early game and really only useful to regenerate a fleet wipe later on.

I've always thought the 'stockpile' method is the weakest way of handling construction. Having minerals and factories represents our ability to build, and those costs should come out of our per turn income. Treat the stockpile like science where you can use up to the amount you produce each month on building. Each item being built takes a share of that, so you are limited by not just how much you've stockpiled, but how much you can reasonably bring in.

 

[SrGrvsaLot]

As I put in my thread, I don't think you should reasonably be expected to max out all the trees. I do think Unity should 'fizzle' out at some point, where you can still pick up some tradition bonuses to make use of the Unity you can't get rid of, but eventually your heritage sites are going to become mines, power plants and laboratories. It's really, as one might say, the price of progress that heritage is lost.

And as I also discussed, I think the main problem with traditions is they are tied to ascendancy. Everything you do should contribute to ascendancy, not just maxing out your tradition trees. Bottom line is it works okay as it is, but there is definitely room for improvement.

The point about multiple routes to ascendancy is well-taken, but, while I think you could make an argument that human beings are the sort to sacrifice heritage for progress, when it comes to a society of tranquil psionic space monks, who's to say?

 

[Kayden_II]

It definitely feels weird to be a pacifist empire and complete the Supremacy and Domination trees.

Yeah - An Empire-Tradition-Tree feels more like an Empire-Ethic than a Technology, Which means You can't have Them All ...

repeatable tradition that is unlocked by completing an entire tree and provides a lesser effect that is somehow related to the tree's theme

Which is even a Possibility to solve the above-mentioned Issue ...

And if there was some way that these repeatable traditions could unlock Ascension Perks

As long as You can't unlock all Ascension-Perks ! ...
I mean, the Circumstance, that You can't unlock all Ascension-Perks (and (hopefully) all Tradition-Trees in the Future) is one of the very few Situations, in Which You can really make strategical Decisions, because the current Situation, in Which You decide the Sequence (only), in Which You unlock the Tradition-Trees, is a dull Streamlining of the Game.

 

[Hyomoto]

The point about multiple routes to ascendancy is well-taken, but, while I think you could make an argument that human beings are the sort to sacrifice heritage for progress, when it comes to a society of tranquil psionic space monks, who's to say?

The only thing I'd say there is that if you weren't expected to max out all the trees, those that cling to heritage receive boons in the form of additional tradition perks. I really think two or three trees should be the average unlock for a given game. Your space monks may well unlock four or five. Under the current method, however, no. There is no difference.

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

Maybe something like early Civ, where you could dump coins into production? Only in this case, dump Unity into other resources?

Could easily see dumping it into Influence.

 

[HamHamJ]

Maybe it could add happiness?

 

[Hyomoto]

The problem with any bonus to unity after the fact is that you will accumulate it into infinity. Unless you can use it in it's intended format, currency, the bonus it gives would also have to taper off and once again render it useless.

 

[SrGrvsaLot]

The problem with any bonus to unity after the fact is that you will accumulate it into infinity. Unless you can use it in it's intended format, currency, the bonus it gives would also have to taper off and once again render it useless.

If the cost to purchase increases each time, it wouldn't be all that different, balance-wise, from the repeatable techs we have now. Which is to say, it's theoretically infinite, but in practice bounded by the amount of time you want to devote to a single game file.

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

If the cost to purchase increases each time, it wouldn't be all that different, balance-wise, from the repeatable techs we have now. Which is to say, it's theoretically infinite, but in practice bounded by the amount of time you want to devote to a single game file.

Hmm...I like that.

 

[SrGrvsaLot]

Actually, a thought just occurred to me. Maybe your Unity sink could be one-time bonuses that give you something you can't get any other way, rather than a permanent empire bonus. Perhaps they can even be tied to ascension perks. So they could be things like

Spend XXXX Unity, gain 10 growth points towards all your under-constuction synths (the low, fixed growth rate of synths is something that plagued me mightily when I uploaded my consciousness).

Or Spend XXXX Unity, advance the construction of a megastructure by 100 days.

Spend XXXX Unity, reduce the time remaining on a genetic engineering project

Spend XXXX Unity, gain a 25% bonus to shield regeneration for the next year

and so on and so forth. Things that aren't stackable and which will generally pop less than once per year, even on an advanced empire (that's why Ieft the unity numbers X'd out), but which, once you have two or three of them, will force you to make decisions about how to spend them. The other advantage is that they would feel different than repeatable techs.

 

[Hyomoto]

If the cost to purchase increases each time, it wouldn't be all that different, balance-wise, from the repeatable techs we have now. Which is to say, it's theoretically infinite, but in practice bounded by the amount of time you want to devote to a single game file.

I agree, but in that case the bonus isn't accumulating Unity but rather than you can spend it on something, thus using it as a currency. That said, I can't see what you could possibly buy with it that would be useful by the time you got to the point you didn't need it anymore as that's pretty much covered by most other things.

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

Actually, a thought just occurred to me. Maybe your Unity sink could be one-time bonuses that give you something you can't get any other way, rather than a permanent empire bonus. Perhaps they can even be tied to ascension perks. So they could be things like

Spend XXXX Unity, gain 10 growth points towards all your under-constuction synths (the low, fixed growth rate of synths is something that plagued me mightily when I uploaded my consciousness).

Or Spend XXXX Unity, advance the construction of a megastructure by 100 days.

Spend XXXX Unity, reduce the time remaining on a genetic engineering project

Spend XXXX Unity, gain a 25% bonus to shield regeneration for the next year

and so on and so forth. Things that aren't stackable and which will generally pop less than once per year, even on an advanced empire (that's why Ieft the unity numbers X'd out), but which, once you have two or three of them, will force you to make decisions about how to spend them. The other advantage is that they would feel different than repeatable techs.

Hmm...Alternately, unspent Unity could give a small bonus; the more unspent unity, the bigger the (still small) bonus gets.

Or maybe all three options? Repeat tradition, spent Unity for (permanent? temporary? bonus), or keep Unity to get a small bonus to everything?

 

[Hyomoto]

Actually, a thought just occurred to me. Maybe your Unity sink could be one-time bonuses that give you something you can't get any other way, rather than a permanent empire bonus. Perhaps they can even be tied to ascension perks. So they could be things like

Spend XXXX Unity, gain 10 growth points towards all your under-constuction synths (the low, fixed growth rate of synths is something that plagued me mightily when I uploaded my consciousness).

Or Spend XXXX Unity, advance the construction of a megastructure by 100 days.

Spend XXXX Unity, reduce the time remaining on a genetic engineering project

Spend XXXX Unity, gain a 25% bonus to shield regeneration for the next year

and so on and so forth. Things that aren't stackable and which will generally pop less than once per year, even on an advanced empire (that's why Ieft the unity numbers X'd out), but which, once you have two or three of them, will force you to make decisions about how to spend them. The other advantage is that they would feel different than repeatable techs.

You replied just before I did, but yeah, this is basically what I was talking about. You have to have something to spend it on. Now that I think of it though it -could- serve as a late-game accelerator. Bonuses to things that made sense in the early game time-wise but now that you are just trying to wrap up, help speed things up a bit. Then the Unity wouldn't have to even be infinite, because eventually it would push you far enough ahead to grease the wheels of victory.

 

[Taritu]

I think you don't want tradition to have strong incentives for people not to spend it, especially to bank it for emergency "buy outs". Also, by the time you've got all the trees, you've probably pretty much won the game, you're just going thru the motions.

 

[Nesjamag]

How about removing/changing some ascension perks.
Most people probably go for master of nature as first perk. How about the ability to change that far down the line when it becomes obsolete.

That or just more ascension slots (an extra 4) that cost a lot unity to unlock (instead of the 8th one being unlocked through research).
This would allow building either a truly op empire, or might have the potential to truly make playing tall competitive.

Another possibility may be upgrading some of the ascension perks.
Like a tier 2 synth revolution giving even better bonuses, or more gene traits.
Or perhaps making the megastructures stronger.