I think that CK3 should delete Jihad

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Vityviktor

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Definitely, they should re-design how do they work. We can take Crusades like they're right now after Holy Fury, as I think they work nice enough (even though they're maybe a bit overpowered). But maybe Jihads should behave more like EU4 crusades: the Caliph declares a Jihad against certain enemy (realm or religion) which grants bonuses to any muslim ruler during a war against that target (maybe volunteer warriors, bonus during combat, etc).
 
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2333Vladimir

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If there is still a Crusade in CK3, there shall still be a Jihad.
 
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Farabi

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But it means "fighting against infidels by sword" and that meaning was vastly prevalent in the CK timeframe. "Crusade" today also doesnt always mean "armed struggle for the cross" .... should we consider dropping the "C" from the "CK"?

You're both right and wrong in different ways. 'Jihad' literally means 'struggle' and although sometimes it does imply armed struggle, sometimes it certainly does not. I'm not going to go into a full listing of all the uses of 'jihad' theologically or politically but just as an illustration, the root J-H-D (look up 'Semitic roots') is also used for terms like 'ijtihad', which refers to the independent use of reason, particularly in an Islamic juridical context. This point is as true in a medieval Islamic context as in a modern one.

I would also observe that contemporary Christians did not refer to their religious military adventures as 'crusades'. That was a label applied later on in the Renaissance; they were called many things at various times, but the First Crusade for instance was referred to as an 'iter' or 'peregrinatio' ('journey' or 'pilgrimage' respectively, in Latin).

In any case, I agree that it isn't really accurate to make jihad a mirror of the crusade mechanic (which, agreed, is itself more than a bit ahistorical mechanically); within the game's timeframe (i.e. well after the end of aggressive Umayyad expansion) none of the wars initiated by Islamic rulers against non-Muslims resembled the monumental outpourings of Western Christendom onto the Asian continent. The recapture of Jerusalem was not an anti-crusade that united the Muslim world in opposition to Latin Catholics, let alone eastern Christians, and it certainly wasn't driven by a caliphal fatwa.

It is also important to note that the medieval ulama had an extraordinarily legalistic view of the expansion of Islamic authority and diplomatic relations with non-Muslim domains which had more nuance and gradiation than the neoconservative charicature and modern fundamentalist misapprehension of there being a simple polarity between Dar al-Harb / Dar al-Salam (i.e. enemy of Islam / submitted to Islam).

Suffice to say without a complete overhaul of what Islamic rulers might consider a casus belli compared to feudal Christendom I would agree that it would make sense to dispense altogether with the jihad mechanic and make Muslim 'holy wars' more regional affairs. It should also be more difficult to just collect territory as a small Muslim domain, essentially because folding foreign people of a different religion into your realm takes a lot of effort and manpower. But I think that's also an argument for anti-blobbing mechanics generally - Basil II would understand...
 
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guinea prince

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To not pander to repulsive people and distressingly boring edgelords.

Anywho, crusades already get the majority of great holy war features, with the new menu and rewards and events while most everyone else settles for the base crusade with wood paneling slapped on top. Adjusting the CBs unique to non-Christians and non-European cultures rather than just light copy-paste of the basic would be pretty cool, though we have yet to see how crusades and CBs/war will work in CK3.
 

Patriarch of Bub

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inb4 you get this thread locked
He's right, let's keep more relevant to the thread.


I understand the problem that Jihad has the majority of its uses outside of the ck great holy war.
If it is any consolation, when you join a crusade you might read the expression "take up the cross". This phrase too has many uses other than the one of Crusades :)
 

DPS

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On what do you base this claim?

As a native English speaker, that's how I'd always understood the term. But to make sure I hadn't misunderstood, I looked it up on Dictionary.com. The first definition there was: "A holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims". Now, to be fair, the second definition there is: "Any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle". Interesting that even that definition equates a crusade and a jihad.
 

prismaticmarcus

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You're both right and wrong in different ways. 'Jihad' literally means 'struggle' and although sometimes it does imply armed struggle, sometimes it certainly does not. I'm not going to go into a full listing of all the uses of 'jihad' theologically or politically but just as an illustration, the root J-H-D (look up 'Semitic roots') is also used for terms like 'ijtihad', which refers to the independent use of reason, particularly in an Islamic juridical context. This point is as true in a medieval Islamic context as in a modern one.

I would also observe that contemporary Christians did not refer to their religious military adventures as 'crusades'. That was a label applied later on in the Renaissance; they were called many things at various times, but the First Crusade for instance was referred to as an 'iter' or 'peregrinatio' ('journey' or 'pilgrimage' respectively, in Latin).

In any case, I agree that it isn't really accurate to make jihad a mirror of the crusade mechanic (which, agreed, is itself more than a bit ahistorical mechanically); within the game's timeframe (i.e. well after the end of aggressive Umayyad expansion) none of the wars initiated by Islamic rulers against non-Muslims resembled the monumental outpourings of Western Christendom onto the Asian continent. The recapture of Jerusalem was not an anti-crusade that united the Muslim world in opposition to Latin Catholics, let alone eastern Christians, and it certainly wasn't driven by a caliphal fatwa.

It is also important to note that the medieval ulama had an extraordinarily legalistic view of the expansion of Islamic authority and diplomatic relations with non-Muslim domains which had more nuance and gradiation than the neoconservative charicature and modern fundamentalist misapprehension of there being a simple polarity between Dar al-Harb / Dar al-Salam (i.e. enemy of Islam / submitted to Islam).

Suffice to say without a complete overhaul of what Islamic rulers might consider a casus belli compared to feudal Christendom I would agree that it would make sense to dispense altogether with the jihad mechanic and make Muslim 'holy wars' more regional affairs. It should also be more difficult to just collect territory as a small Muslim domain, essentially because folding foreign people of a different religion into your realm takes a lot of effort and manpower. But I think that's also an argument for anti-blobbing mechanics generally - Basil II would understand...
so in terms of game mechanics what would you suggest? assuming crusades will work in a similar fashion how do you thhk 'jihads' should work?
 

Invader_Canuck

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Jihad is one of those difficult words to define in English, because it has such a wide variety of connotations relating to the concept of "struggle". However, war against invaders IS one of those connotations, and to suggest otherwise is revisionist. Historically speaking, the concept of Jihad as a "holy war" was predominantly, if not entirely defensive in nature. It was reactionary, not proactive. Holy wars were called to take back lost territory, not to initiate new conquest. Although, there is an argument to be made that the initial era of conquest that swept out of the Arabian peninsula could be classified in part, as Jihad as well.

In short, Jihad as a war mechanic should stay, it would be absurd not to have it.
 

Invader_Canuck

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As a native English speaker, that's how I'd always understood the term. But to make sure I hadn't misunderstood, I looked it up on Dictionary.com. The first definition there was: "A holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims". Now, to be fair, the second definition there is: "Any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle". Interesting that even that definition equates a crusade and a jihad.

Ignorance isn't really a good argument. Jihad literally means "struggle", it is defined by Muslims to be basically about 3 forms of struggle. One of these is greater jihad, like, don't sin, be a good Muslim (think internal conflicts). The other is external struggle, which is divided into two one is basically public discourse, debate and such the other is the struggle of the sword, or armed conflict.

Based on polling data, Westerners believe that the struggle of the sword or war, is the most important aspect of Jihad. According to Muslims, it's the least important aspect of Jihad.
 

Etrutian

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First of all, Jihad does not simply equal to holy war. Many of the players (many of whom are Muslims) have already known that Jihad means striving and struggling in Arabic, and is far more than just fighting against infidels.
Secondly, Muslims can always spend 1000 piety to invade a whole kingdom, not to mention the Seljukids who can invade at no cost. Aside from those unreasonable CBs, the Caliph can also subjugate a Sunni Muslim once per lifetime! Think of 769 bookmark where players must deal with HUGE Abbasid empire, that's really a nightmare for Catholic counts and ERE. I believe that great holy war should become a privilege of Catholicism and Paganism, otherwise Muslim can use all kinds of CBs (as well as using Jizya tax to buy mercenaries), which is almost invincible.
Furthermore, the Caliphs never organized such a united invasion against the west throughout the medieval history. It is also very ridiculous that the Umayyads can even join the Jihad called by the Abbasids, regardless of the fact that latter is actually a usurper of the Umayyad Caliphate. But since I am not very good at middle east history, you are welcome and greatly appreciated if you can give such an example where the Caliph (not Saladin or other sultans) called for a great Jihad after the death of the prophet Muhammad.


'I don't want islamic crusades in the game called crusader king'

u wat m8. What would you call the entire early expansion of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula to both India and the Iberian frontier? If anything, the Catholics looked at the success of Islam and tried to aggressively copy its success.
 

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In regards to Deus Vult. The article has been amended, no decision has been taken on the subject. Please refer to the megathread we have pinned, this information was posted ages ago. Don't speculate and spread false rumours please.
 

Patriarch of Bub

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In regards to Deus Vult. The article has been amended, no decision has been taken on the subject. Please refer to the megathread we have pinned, this information was posted ages ago. Don't speculate and spread false rumours please.
Fair enough. Any chance of getting that thread unlocked though?
 

DPS

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Ignorance isn't really a good argument. Jihad literally means "struggle", it is defined by Muslims to be basically about 3 forms of struggle. One of these is greater jihad, like, don't sin, be a good Muslim (think internal conflicts). The other is external struggle, which is divided into two one is basically public discourse, debate and such the other is the struggle of the sword, or armed conflict.

Based on polling data, Westerners believe that the struggle of the sword or war, is the most important aspect of Jihad. According to Muslims, it's the least important aspect of Jihad.

I'm not claiming ignorance. I'm claiming that as a native speaker of English, I know what the word means in English, and actually consulted a source to confirm that my impression of what the word means is correct. In fact, I'm claiming the exact opposite of ignorance when it comes to the meaning of the word in English--that my knowledge of its English meaning is superior to yours.
 

DPS

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Lol. Good one, Varren.
 

elvain

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But it means "fighting against infidels by sword" and that meaning was vastly prevalent in the CK timeframe. "Crusade" today also doesnt always mean "armed struggle for the cross" .... should we consider dropping the "C" from the "CK"?
Even very hardline islamic medieval theologians such as al-Ghazali or Ibn Taymiyya would oppose this kind of statement, which shows more about quality your knowledge about medieval islam, than about reality of medieval islam.

Especially in medieval times jihad meant much more than its military aspect.

EDIT: as explained much better by Farabi in a post I didn't see when posting this
 
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Teutonic_Thrash

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  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Federations
I'm not claiming ignorance. I'm claiming that as a native speaker of English, I know what the word means in English, and actually consulted a source to confirm that my impression of what the word means is correct. In fact, I'm claiming the exact opposite of ignorance when it comes to the meaning of the word in English--that my knowledge of its English meaning is superior to yours.
Jihad isn't just a word in the English language though. It's a major and multifaceted concept in Islam as well described by Farabi and Invader_Canuck. Therefore referring to just the English language definition when discussing Jihad as a game mechanic is insufficient.
 
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