I think I understand now why the Ottomans fail so often

[Taylor]

It's because everyone and their mom all the time attacks them! Seriously, half of Europe has nothing better to do or something.

I was playing them, and it went in cycles like this: Hungary dows. I invade and start kicking ass. Mamluks sees their chance and dows. I'm still not too worried because the Mamluk armies tend to break oh so easily. Then, like, Castile and allies dows, Venice and allies, Teutonic order and allies, Poland and allies... almost everyone who can get to me! My infamy was only 4 or so.

I can handle that (barely; by concentrating on each enemy separately until they agree to WP or a concede defeat from me - although in the latest war with Hungary I decided to devastate them and now they're all split up so I hope I've broken the cycle of war now), but I'm not surprised that an AI Ottomans can't. And then we see things like the strongest of these "crusading" nations (Castille) ending up with Anatolia.

I think the reason is all the Holy War CBs. And the relative ease with which troops can be transported over large distances. What do you think?

 

[Johnny X]

I think you're right.

I've tried playing Ottomans. It isn't actually a lot of fun because maniacs constantly declare war on you just because. Add to that the fact that you'll border the Horde, the Timurids and Qara K in pretty short order, and playing the Ottomans is strictly for people who want to be in largely pointless defensive wars ALL THE TIME.

On the bright side, you will - MUST - have a veritable horde of vassals pretty quickly. By 1470, I think I had Wallachia, Bosnia, Moldova, Serbia, Ragusa, Croatia (yes, I'd beaten Hungary approximate 5,000 times), Corfu, Naxos, Crete, Georgia, Armenia, Tunisa, Tripoli and Sicily all vassalised, mostly to provide a shield against the hordes. And, in Sicily's case, to stop Aragon and Naples being even more annoying.

In fact, you find yourself doing slightly odd things - two of your first priorities should be to rush to DOW and vassalise Moldova and Georgia just to stop the Golden Horde taking them, bordering you and then irritating you by sending 35,000 guys onto your soild just as you're simultaneously already fighting, in separate defensive wars the Timurids, the Mamluks, Byzantium, Venice, Castille, England, the Teutons, Ming, Bar, Oyo and Creek.

 

[ATW]

It makes it fun

I remember spending 2 years chasing King Henry the whatever around Anatolia because he refused to sign a peace treat, despite him losing every ally he had cause I beat them to a pulp.

 

[Pewt]

Play on Low Aggression; it fixes this.

 

[safferli]

Play on Low Aggression; it fixes this.

Somewhat. The Ottomans are still a prime target for crusades and other DotF countries.

 

[Pewt]

Somewhat. The Ottomans are still a prime target for crusades and other DotF countries.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can't remember a game (excluding ones where I was interfering in the area) with an unsuccessful Ottomans on Low Aggression.

 

[Johnny X]

Play on Low Aggression; it fixes this.

In much the same way as only playing EU3 for 3.5 hours when I ought to be putting up shelves fixes the issue of my wife shouting at me for playing EU3 for 4 hours.

 

[Pewt]

In much the same way as only playing EU3 for 3.5 hours when I ought to be putting up shelves fixes the issue of my wife shouting at me for playing EU3 for 4 hours.

Uh, what? The Ottomans are usually very successful on low aggression.

 

[Johnny X]

Uh, what? The Ottomans are usually very successful on low aggression.

Not in my experience. They are less unsuccessful - although it depends on start date. Have you tried starting on August 1 1402, to play the country in your avatar?

 

[unmerged(371738)]

I always make a point of beating up on the Ottomans about mid-game (earlier if I'm close), especially when I'm the HRE. It's a great way to get Papal Influence, low-infamy provinces (some of the Greek ones are pretty good) and army tradition, especially since the Ottos have basically no chance of invading you at all if you're somewhere like N. Germany or France. They never survive in my games, as I make a point to eradicate them. Once you smash the Ottomans that means there is no serious Islamic power remaining, which means you can proceed to smack the rest of them around with impunity.

It is really ridiculously easy to overrun the Islamic countries in EU.

Also, the bonus for Crusades is really awesome.

I think, overall, the basic problem is that 1) they are ahistorically weak; 2) they never 'clean house' in Anatolia; 3) it's extremely appealing for major European powers to attack them, and for their vassals and allies to join in; 4) They can't do anything to European countries outside of the Balkans.

If the Ottomans weren't jutting into Europe they'd probably last a lot longer, but as it is about half of their territories are at the mercy of more advanced and richer opponents who are basically invulnerable. I have never felt threatened by the Ottomans, even as Austria when they'd eaten all of Hungary. I knew I still had more money and more men than them and that their chances of effectively mobolizing armies from inner Anatolia to my front was minimal. I consider Brandenburg more dangerous for W. Europeans than the Ottomans.

 

[Pewt]

Not in my experience. They are less unsuccessful - although it depends on start date. Have you tried starting on August 1 1402, to play the country in your avatar?

I start in 1399. I can imagine the Ottomans do poorly if you pick dates in which they are fragmented and covered in rebels.

 

[unmerged(371738)]

I start in 1399. I can imagine the Ottomans do poorly if you pick dates in which they are fragmented and covered in rebels.

I've only once seen them be successful, in a game I played as Milan -> Italy -> HRE, they got quite a bit of the Black Sea region and much of the Arabic coastal region. But they folded like a house of cards when I dropped 115k men on their front door.

They seem to do better in the Death & Taxes mod, but they're still easily stalemated by European powers.

Historically, the Ottomans twice seiged Vienna and once probably could have taken it (if they'd cared to). In the game they're lucky to hold onto Serbia.

 

[Taylor]

I have to add that I was playing the D&T mod... In that mod, the Ottomans are, IMO, not at all too weak, really. They're actually pretty strong and rich. However, they get attacked by so many outside nations that I can understand them crumbling when played by an AI. The situation is even worse in vanilla.

Low aggression might make things somewhat better, as it does with a lot of AI issues in the game. However, two issues:
1) Shouldn't the AI function optimally on normal settings?
2) In the case of the Ottomans, the AI nations are right in attacking the Ottomans, since they can win. So here, there's nothing wrong with the AI judgment of things. I think there's something wrong with other factors in the game: the crusade bonus, the Holy War casus belli, the ease with which troops are transported; these things just make the Ottomans a very juicy target for the AI.

 

[ZearothK]

If you start in 1453 or later dates they tend to be a lot more successful. I once played the New World Scenario (1492, I think?) and they managed to westernize and expand from Italy to Morocco.

The fact is that in 1399 they will be regularly distracted by wars with the Golden Horde and the Timurids, making them very tempting targets for anyone with a holy war CB. Getting missions to conquer nations that are guaranteed by all of the great powers (the Greek Minors, the Knights) also doesn't help.

 

[Johnny X]

I start in 1399. I can imagine the Ottomans do poorly if you pick dates in which they are fragmented and covered in rebels.

You should try the start date I posted - Saruhan is a good laugh (I play Karaman though)

Yes, they're even weaker in 1402 than in 1399, but they're still weak in 1399.

 

[unmerged(204522)]

i think crusade target should be limited to mamluks only until jerusalem is in christian hands and has converted to a christian religion.

 

[unmerged(210623)]

Can you form Byzantium as Ottomans?

 

[Poppy Appletree]

i think crusade target should be limited to mamluks only until jerusalem is in christian hands and has converted to a christian religion.

Except historically, that never really went anywhere.

 

[StephenT]

I agree with the OP: the constant wars wear the Ottomans down. It's a consequence of the piling-on effect: they're at war, so their war capacity is low, so they look like an easy target to everybody else - and then the holy war CBs make attacking them low-cost.

It also doesn't help that they border the two largest and most dangerous hordes (once the Golden Horde takes Moldavia, which doesn't take long). So they end up getting tag-teamed: every five years one attacks them, and as soon as they beat them the other attacks. Or they pay tribute to both hordes, which destroys their economy.

War exhaustion becomes a killer too. Since the Ottoman armies are marching around through remote deserts and steppes they'll often be suffering attrition. And because Europeans are constantly declaring war on them too, once their war exhaustion gets high they'll never, ever get it down again. If I could make one change, it would be a decision or triggered modifier that gives the Ottomans faster war exhaustion reduction. Or even give them a veteran's home in Edirne at the start of the game.

It would also seem fair to give the Ottomans the Crusade bonus when fighting Christians, just as Christian nations can get it against them. They saw themselves as holy warriors for the faith, after all.

 

[fridabina]

People keep saying how it's the Holy war casus belli but when i played Ottomans the AI tend to declare war even if they don't have a Casus belli.

It would also seem fair to give the Ottomans the Crusade bonus when fighting Christians, just as Christian nations can get it against them. They saw themselves as holy warriors for the faith, after all.

I would say all muslims should have that, atleast if they are Crusade target or at war with more than one christian nation. (or outnumbered)