I think I have a reasonable argument against the great power alliance penalty.

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spoffy

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Namely, without the Castille/Austria/Burgundy/England alliance early on, France goes berserk and nothing can stop them.

It's 1519 and they're fielding 95,000 troops, twice as many as anybody else (except Poland + Lithuania), they can expand into the HRE at will (Austria is no match for them), and the only coalition that formed (Austria, Savoy, Burgundy, Provence + Lorraine) got utterly crushed. I'm terrified to grab Savoy and get a border with them.

Help?

eu4_17.png


Edit: They're taking out what's left of Burgundy and Sweden + England are failing to stop them. They're even invading the Isles.
 

aitaituo

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand where the great power alliance consideration penalty has caused this. Also, may I ask why you didn't join the coalition against them?

At any rate, Wiz has said that the great power alliance consideration penalty is going to be tweaked to be a soft cap rather than a hard one.
 

Andy_Dandy

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Yes, and as mentioned, you have the coalitions to help you take down big threaths like this. If you join them in time that is, of course.

This is good because allying many great powers is potentially ultra exploitive vs the AI, coalitions not so much.
 

Comradebot

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I think the best example with France is that they have a really strong tendency towards allying Russia.

The result is the two largest armies in the world united without any real check. My little Hannover (okay, not that little) barely just weathered that storm... at the cost of my alliances with both Austria and Poland, and my manpower is completely fried. If I can manage to get past one of the -100s and ally Russia, maybe I'll have a shot to survive.

If not, could become a slippery slope of destruction. Guess I could always run away and play with one of my colonies.
 

TheRevanchist

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Eh I've seen it before too in a 1.5 game where France was reduced to nothing by everybody around him.

There are many other better reasonable arguments but a small sample size example is not one of them.
 

FrosT37

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Namely, without the Castille/Austria/Burgundy/England alliance early on, France goes berserk and nothing can stop them.

It's 1519 and they're fielding 95,000 troops, twice as many as anybody else (except Poland + Lithuania), they can expand into the HRE at will (Austria is no match for them), and the only coalition that formed (Austria, Savoy, Burgundy, Provence + Lorraine) got utterly crushed. I'm terrified to grab Savoy and get a border with them.
I just completed a game with the Papal state myself, so trust me I know what I'm talking about.

You have to grab Savoy because you will want to be able to fortify your units in the Alps without attrition if you ever get into a war with France. This strong defensive position will allow you to cause massive casualties on the French side, crippling their manpower.

This is the only way you can "survive" against a French attack.
 

spoffy

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand where the great power alliance consideration penalty has caused this. Also, may I ask why you didn't join the coalition against them?

Well, here's how things used to play out in my experience:

  • Castille and Portugal are allies (historical friend modifier).
  • Castille and Burgundy are allies (threatened by France).
  • Castille and Austria are allies (threatened by France).
  • England and Portugal are allies (can't remember if they're HF or not, but it seems to stick most of the time).
  • England and Aragon are allies (threatened by France).
  • Aragon and Burgundy/Austria are allies (threatened by France)

So France was in the middle of a web of GP alliances that made expansion more difficult and often led to wars against all their neighbors at once. This is still possible, but with GP the new dynamic seems to be:

  • Castille and Portugal are allies (historical friends).
  • Castille and Portugal can't ally anybody else because they've already used their one GP alliance on each other.
  • Austria and England both hate Burgundy, and Castille has Portugal, so Burgundy must scramble for a GP ally. Sometimes they end up with Aragon, sometimes Aragon allies with England and they can't find anybody.
  • Austria might ally with England, but it's a crapshoot and they might end up with Poland or just fill up their alliance slots with HRE minors.

Burgundy is in trouble. France either beats them straight up or backstabs them when they're fighting Austria. If the inheritance doesn't fire, they stand a good chance of getting all the lowlands. If it does fire, Austria now has a problem: they can't ally Castille either, and now England hates them. So France beats up Austria and takes more of the rich lowlands. Austria loses their grip on the Empire, and somebody else takes over who's even LESS equipped to handle France. Meanwhile, the Iberians sit around doing nothing, and soon you have the terrifying monster you see above.

France now has an easier time expanding and while they can still screw up, they have more leeway as well.

Have you asked yourself how much worse would the situation be if France had several great power allies?

France is like 1.5 GP on their own, France plus any other GP is a scary thing.

I just completed a game with the Papal state myself, so trust me I know what I'm talking about.

You have to grab Savoy because you will want to be able to fortify your units in the Alps without attrition if you ever get into a war with France. This strong defensive position will allow you to cause massive casualties on the French side, crippling their manpower.

This is the only way you can "survive" against a French attack.

Well, even if I don't grab it, they will, right? Here goes nothing. :(
 

lucaluca

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Actually if coalitions work properly, they can take the place of the web of alliances. I noticed that even with the malus it is possible to ally two great powers at any given time do it's not too bad
 

Korsan82

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At any rate, Wiz has said that the great power alliance consideration penalty is going to be tweaked to be a soft cap rather than a hard one.

So once again they released a half polished and barely tested patch? Oh God this company is driving me crazy... Not playing anymore and I am waiting for some positive feedback in the forums so I can rejoin the game and enjoy it without having to play an entirely different game on every patch.
I guess I can wait some more. EUIV so far was the biggest disappointment (even more than In Nomine). Not because it's bad, but because it was made bad after release.

I don't know why professional companies don't spend a little more effort on QA...
 

Fede248

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand where the great power alliance consideration penalty has caused this. Also, may I ask why you didn't join the coalition against them?

At any rate, Wiz has said that the great power alliance consideration penalty is going to be tweaked to be a soft cap rather than a hard one.
Because the AI doesn't join coalitions when it has to.
 

Morwys

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Almost finishing a game with England/GB (I'm in 1760, ATM).

I handed my continental holdings to France straight away. Conquered Ireland. Allied Scotland, RM and all. As you can see, I like a historical route. At first, the GPs mostly kept to themselves, except for France. They pounded on Burgundy and got into a few stalemates with Austria, but they expanded all over the lowlands. They even got Girona from a formed Spain (with colonies all over the place, nonetheless).

But, after some time, they can't compete. Once Spain and me got our colonial holdings in place, it was a walk in the park. I got Newfoundland in a single war against them, annihilated their entire fleet in two battles. Spain got Girona back, then got Labourd, Toulouse and another province in Aquitaine I can't remember the name. In a war for the Guyane, they sent over a 40k army to doomstack me in India: with full Quality and over 60 army tradition from pounding on indian minors, I managed to win every single battle against them - with a 18k army - eventually wiping them out. Meanwhile, Portugal occupied their entire territory.

What happens is that, while France has a lot of troops, if you plan carefully, you can beat them. If you face them head on, you're bound to lose. If you can obtain naval superiority over them, you're all set to win. If you can't then you must play defensively, wear them out and eventually their manpower blows away. Attrition is doing its job as never before in the EU games. Also, they don't colonize properly if England plays their cards right. Now that colonies fight for themselves, the Thirteen Colonies are a powerhouse; in my game, they managed to win in their side of every single conflict they've been in.

All in all, I have 2 considerations about the problems raised by the OP:

  • France does not blob as effectively as it once did. That is because a) they're lousy colonizers and...
    Have you asked yourself how much worse would the situation be if France had several great power allies?
    This, basically. They can't ally themselves with some other behemoth as often as before (in one of my earlier games, I had to face alliances of France, Austria, Sweden and Russia).
  • Alliances, in my opinion, now work as they should. Too often alliances resembled coalitions before the GP alliance malus. Every war was a world war. Now, we have localized conflicts, with specific objectives; for example, in my recent GB game, I just won a war against Spain for Cuba (started by the Thirteen Colonies against New Spain). The fight was concentrated in India and the Caribbean, with major naval battles occuring in the spanish coast. Before that, I had a localized war against France (for some indian provinces) and Russia (also for some indian provinces). I managed to make the spanish relinquish the lands they conquered in China as well.

TL;DR: France is strong in early game, late game, not so much (if the player knows what he's doing). Alliances between GP needed the nerf, because they felt too much like coalitions. To conquer a single province you used to have to fight the whole world for it. I'm quite satisfied with the game, ATM.

EDIT:
Because the AI doesn't join coalitions when it has to.
Not the case in my game. I just checked the game history, the first time France got beaten, it was because they faced a coalition of Castille, Austria and a few HRE minors. Coalitions are not as common anymore, also something to my liking.
 
Last edited:
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I'm still on the fence in terms of liking or not liking the great power modifier. But based on my one game so far it definitely has an obvious flaw the should be altered.

Austria was my ally as Byzantium. So was Poland. As you can imagine after a while Poland slips into the great power category bam alliance insta broken. Then Poland slips out some years later and alliance back on again. And for a state like Byzantium you NEED Poland because Austria alone is not enough due to distractions I'm the HRE.

Problem of course is after a while u can't keep chancing it with Poland and they breaking alliances. There should be a warning when an ally hits great power status and then a yearly negative increase in relations to give you time to see if they will maintain status or lose it. Say 10 years grace period.

Also how to tell who is a GP? The score comparison doesn't list 1, 2, 3 etc. it gives bizarre figures like 1.08 2.34 etc
 

Fenxis

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GP needs to have a scale instead of an arbitrary yes/no boolean state. Also the game should take into account regional strength for these kinds of calculations (power for alliance, warleader, etc).
 

matk

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  • Alliances, in my opinion, now work as they should. Too often alliances resembled coalitions before the GP alliance malus. Every war was a world war. Now, we have localized conflicts, with specific objectives; for example, in my recent GB game, I just won a war against Spain for Cuba (started by the Thirteen Colonies against New Spain). The fight was concentrated in India and the Caribbean, with major naval battles occuring in the spanish coast. Before that, I had a localized war against France (for some indian provinces) and Russia (also for some indian provinces). I managed to make the spanish relinquish the lands they conquered in China as well.

This. Lots of this.

Initially, I was super annoyed by loading my save and getting "alliance broken" several times (including from some odd places...who knew Savoy is a great power?). But it made so much sense in practice. Once countries start getting +dip rel, the game devolves into sniping countries who are in truces, or whose allies are occupied in order to merely have a large war, not a continent-spanning WWI event.
 
Jan 28, 2007
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Ok have played for a while now on 1.5. Overall 1.5 seems an improvement on 1.4 but my god this -100 Great Power thing is tedious, random and thoroughly annoying. Allies who jump in and out of the top10 break alliances with regularity.
Add to that as this screenshot below will show they break alliances even when the opinion is neither negative nor are they a hostile attitude.....I thought alliances got broken when it went into the -negative.
Screenie's like the below I've had happen roughly 5 odd times and its just damnright annoying.

People would say well don't ally more than one great power.....I'm allied with Bohemia and Georgia. Bohemia I can grant is probably GP material or really close but Georgia? Give me a break. Its become a not clear or obvious game of determining whom a great power is or might be in the future.
Hell I'd say Naples is a safe bet for a safe ally non-GP but who knows maybe +1 more province suddenly makes them a GP.....if Georgia can (which is patheric btw) they could be wiped out in 1 war.
Oh incase I was not overly clear Georgia was my ally until a moment ago when this screenie was taken.

Screen%20Shot%202014-03-01%20at%202.24.08%20pm.png


To further illustrate how stupid the current system is here is a screenie of Lithuania that dwarf's georgia in size and power and Lithuania isn't classed as a GP........trolololol
Screen%20Shot%202014-03-01%20at%202.29.54%20pm.png