I still don't understand peace deals...

[Howl]

Two peace deals below.
I optimistically declared on Muscovy using Kazan's reconquest casus belli.
Now it seems I could use the logical option 1. Return all cores to Kazan.
Or I could use option 2. Cede the same provinces to Kazan.
Since I declared reconquest I would expect return cores to be the better choice.
However:
Cede provinces incurs 4 less AE and gains 31 more power projection. The UI also claims that option 2 will give masive reductions to Kazan's liberty desire, while option 1 does not. (I think this is just the interface though, remains to be tested). Cede provinces also costs more warscore.

The warscore I would assume is due to me having reduced warscore against other religions while Kazan does not. But that should be balanced out with the 75% cost from the CB.
Power projection just is what it is. Returning cores is not regarded as a power move.
But why the AE? Cede provinces should have massively more AE than return cores.
And why do both options cost 0 dip?

 

[Naresh]

Look at the reconquest CB:
0 dip cost for provinces you have a core on, same for returning the core.

only 25% ae and 75% cost.

Unsure why the AE is lower for taking the provinces

 

[Howl]

Look at the reconquest CB:
0 dip cost for provinces you have a core on, same for returning the core.

only 25% ae and 75% cost.

Unsure why the AE is lower for taking the provinces

Well, in game the reconquest casus belli says it's for return core. Silly me for actually believing what the UI tells me. So indeed it is also for taking provinces you have cores on.
I checked, Kazan has -10% AE in their ideas. So there is that. On the other hand I have 100 prestige, which also is -10%. Just like me they have admin and quantity filled. They are also catholic.
Final peace deal came to 11AE for ceding provinces instead of 18 for returning cores (because there was an additional Bashkirian province we could take).
Libert desire reduction is the same for both peace deals. The return core one, just makes no mention of it. But why would anyone want to know minor details such as -76% liberty desire?

The war as such was a sad affair. We started with an even amount of troops. While mine sieged down all of Muscovy and Bashkiria, theirs first went to Finland and then came back to unsiege some provinces. No epic battles fought, no famous last stand, just the usual "I will just walk in and take their land counting on no one to be home".

 

[Vin55]

Well the ai was coded to engage when their chances are better, so if their armies are worse, the siege battle commences. The ai is so stupid thats what I also hate in ck3 where super intelligent ai will just run around until there are stronger or just die in a siege battle kills all fun. The best wars atm are when one has a slight weaker army or is defending because then the ai will attack and one needs to make good choices of engament. The ai should defend its land not siege some random counties on the other side of the map.

 

[L'Afrique]

idk, the cost for temporarily having land occupied is really low and I have absolutely won lopsided wars by siegeracing like the AI wil do. Until EU5 changes things suicidal defence is nowhere near worth against a superior enemy when you can gamble on sieges in most cases.

 

[ImAdrian]

idk, the cost for temporarily having land occupied is really low and I have absolutely won lopsided wars by siegeracing like the AI wil do. Until EU5 changes things suicidal defence is nowhere near worth against a superior enemy when you can gamble on sieges in most cases.

If they are small enough that you can siege them faster yeah, but otherwise you'll start having money issues and skyrocketing war exhaustion.

 

[Howl]

idk, the cost for temporarily having land occupied is really low and I have absolutely won lopsided wars by siegeracing like the AI wil do. Until EU5 changes things suicidal defence is nowhere near worth against a superior enemy when you can gamble on sieges in most cases.

The cost is extremely small if you let them siege your vassal in northern Scandinavia...
I have played this game from the beginning and I miss the AI fighting like a suicidal maniac. Sure when you are big the outcome is the same, but at least it drains some resources.
In this case they would have had a reasonable fighting chance. I am much larger landwise, but we have about the same amount of troops. They could have used defensive terrain, hid behind their fortresses, whatever. Pre 1.12 I would never have declared this war, much too costly. Now? Place all troops next to Muscovy, declare, move in and to the adjacent provinces. After the siege is finished their armies are probably sufficiently far away, that you can spread out and siege them at leisure.

 

[Vin55]

The Problem is that the ai gets acess to land where one would not get it in normal circumstances, Fighting should just be possible in allied land not a third nation with no relation, the exception to this should be the HRE(should be seen as one land).
So no more Ottoman masterflank through Poland or stuff like that instead of a fight for Vidin. The defence of a war goal should be the goal. Or one needs to get more war score from a war goal.
The ai right now is just a wack a mole, running around until one finds the stacks and then one looses against 80k hidden in siberia or stuff like that xd.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

Do you have Diplomatic Ideas? Do you have the Age ability to reduce war score cost? If you have these and your vassal doesn't the costs can be incredibly variable, because the game always uses the War Score cost modifiers of who is taking the land.

 

[Cineres]

For some reason, the war goal has a reduced AE and warscore cost when ceded, compared to being returned via return core. It might be the reason for the reduced AE you're seeing. The power projection problem is likely a different issue, in which it doesn't count it as taking provinces from a rival if you don't *take* them (*returning* them is obviously an entirely different matter...?), which honestly seems a bit like an unintended situation when returning cores to yourself or your vassal.

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

Do the reductions to province warscore cost and so even apply when you take the provinces for your vassal?

Is there any rule of thumb which is better, I usually try out both and see the values and then choose which one is more favourable.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

Do the reductions to province warscore cost and so even apply when you take the provinces for your vassal?

Is there any rule of thumb which is better, I usually try out both and see the values and then choose which one is more favourable.

If you are taking the province directly, or using the return core menu, it applies your war score/absolutism modifiers. Otherwise it uses whoever occupies the province's modifiers, and especially after Absolutism it's usual that your modifiers are way better.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

If you are taking the province directly, or using the return core menu, it applies your war score/absolutism modifiers. Otherwise it uses whoever occupies the province's modifiers, and especially after Absolutism it's usual that your modifiers are way better.

Why is it that if you take some provinces directly, they can cost more before you occupy the provinces than they do after? Sometimes this means a full annex becomes only possible once fully occupied

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I checked, Kazan has -10% AE in their ideas. So there is that. On the other hand I have 100 prestige, which also is -10%. Just like me they have admin and quantity filled. They are also catholic.

Do you have Diplomatic Ideas? Do you have the Age ability to reduce war score cost? If you have these and your vassal doesn't the costs can be incredibly variable, because the game always uses the War Score cost modifiers of who is taking the land.

In this case, giving the land to Kazan via cede province is cheaper, which makes me suspect Kazan has the -cost vs other religions while Livonian Order doesn't...or that that reformation age ability does not apply to return core while it does apply to ceding provinces.

 

[grotaclas]

Why is it that if you take some provinces directly, they can cost more before you occupy the provinces than they do after? Sometimes this means a full annex becomes only possible once fully occupied

From the wiki:

The warscore cost for the wargoal in the conquest and reconquest CB is lowered by ⅓ if it is occupied.

Furthermore the warscore cost of a province depends on its autonomy. If the autonomy increased during the war, the warscore cost for the province decreases. A common cause for this are rebels(e.g. peasants, nobles, particularists) which occupy the province.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

From the wiki:

Furthermore the warscore cost of a province depends on its autonomy. If the autonomy increased during the war, the warscore cost for the province decreases. A common cause for this are rebels(e.g. peasants, nobles, particularists) which occupy the province.

Ah thank you

 

[Howl]

The war score I think I understand now.
Let's assume the unmodified warscore cost for these provinces is 82.
Cede provinces to Kazan still uses the CB modifier of 75% cost, which makes it 61.5 rounded to 62. Seen in original screenshot B. This is incidentially also the same warscore when I cede those provinces to myself, because of my 75% against other religions.
Return cores uses both the modifier from the CB and my own warscore against other religion, so it comes to 46.125 rounded to 46. Seen in screenshot 1.
I will believe this now until someone comes with a better explanation.

AE? Still a bit unsure
From the wiki:
base aggressive expansion=development*peace term modifier*(100+AE impact)*CB*(100-admin eff)*CB modifier*non cobelligerent.
Admin efficiency is 0 and they are not a non cobelligerent, so those aree easy.
base aggressive expansion=development*peace term modifier*(100+AE impact)*CB
CB is 0.25.
Now it gets really iffy. To make these numbers work I could use 57 development. no peace term modifier for return cores and no AE impact for return cores. Then I end up at 14.25 rounded down to 14.
And for cede provinces I use 0.75 for peace term modifier "cede province" (Why am I not using "return cores to victor's subject" above? Because then it doesn't work). And I use -10 AE impact for my 100 prestige. 9.6185 rounded up to 10. Why not use Kazan's prestige for return cores? Because they had -97 breaking my math.

I don't really know what AE impact is and had to selectively use peace term modifier and AE impact to make this work, so I am not really happy with the AE calculation. I will have to look at this again, once I have a suitable vassal again.
This will take some time though because I am slow.

P.s. Counting the development might also help here...

 

[grotaclas]

To make these numbers work I could use 57 development

Did you actually add up the development in the game? Or did you use 57 dev, because that makes the numbers work for you? In your calculation you only calculated the base AE. If you are on patch 1.30, you could see the base AE in the peace deal text. But that part is not visible in your screenshots. The 14 and 10 AE in your screenshots are the maximum AE which you get with a country. Since 1.31 the peace deal text also contains the maximum AE. To calculate that AE you have to use the second equation on the wiki which includes the modifiers which are specific to the countries with whom you get AE. Usually the highest AE is with the country from which you conquer the provinces, but this might be different in your example, because the provinces don't have the same culture group as Muscovy(unless some culture conversion happend). Muscovy would get 1.5 times the base AE, because of the same religion modifier(for this the state religion of the losing country is compared to the state religion of the county for whom you calculate the AE and because both are the same country, the religion is the same and that results in +50% AE). If there would be a country which has the same primary culture as the culture of the conquered provinces and the same state religion as Muscovy, their AE would be 2 times the base AE (if culture or religion would only be in the same group, it would be 1.75). But if that country is further away, their AE gets reduced by distance. But the distance formula for AE was changed in 1.31. I think the rest of the AE is unchanged, but I'm not sure about that(the increased AE for expand empire in 1.31 seems to be caused by a miscalculation of the dev of the conquered country).

Do you still have the save from your screenshot? Then I can probably give you the full AE calculation

 

[ianchen12345]

when you press return core this means that the enemy Muscovy will actually lose the core on that land so having higher AE is justified. IF you just press cede land, if you wait after the peace deal, Muscovy will still have a core on that land for 50 years.

 

[Tempscire]

@grotaclas : Total dev taken seems to be 63 as the peace deal gives 15.7 (actually 15.75) prestige and each dev gives 0.25 prestige.

In general if you give provinces to subjects directly their warscore cost modifier is considered and your AE modifier is considered.
Therefore the prestige of Kazan does not matter and the WS cost is approximately 25% lower if you return cores (46/62) as you have an additional -25% WS cost from the age objective. Note that it is only approximately 25% as taking Penza directly will actually only cost 50% opposed to 75% of its WS as it is the war goal province and rounding occurs. Giving a detailed WS cost calculation is difficult without a savegame as the province WS depends on autonomy, the total dev of Kazan and local trade power, which I can not know from the screenshots alone.
But assuming a base province WS of W we have:
Return cores: W*0.75 (CB) * 0.75 (WS cost modifier)
Cede province: W*0.75 (CB)-0.25*W_Penza (War goal province bonus) [Note that the subject does not use your WS cost modifier].


Regarding AE the following happens. (Note that some of this could be considered a bug).
(i) If you use the reconquest CB with the return core peace option, the 0.5 factor from return cores does not get applied.
(ii) AE for giving cores/returning cores to subjects with the reconquest cb does not factor in religion, culture, etc..

Therefore the AE is just the following:
Return cores: 63 (dev) * 0.25 (CB) * 0.9 (AE modifier)= 14.175
Cede province: 63 (dev) * 0.25 (CB) * 0.75 (Cede Province) * 0.9 (AE modifier)~10.63 [recall that your AE modifier is applied]

As AE always gets rounded down we have 14 resp. 10 AE. This is also the maximal AE due to (ii).

This is just how it currently works in the game. I have no idea if this is intentional or not.