I need you! for my What If Mexico was a Great Power and etc.

[User29]

I'm making a mod-mod for PDM HOD Victoria 2, but I want quite a bit of realism in it. READ BELOW IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS IN THIS FORUM

the premise is really, uniting the Spanish speaking western hemisphere before 1900.

for Mexico which was always seen as quite a bit further from the rest of Colonial Spain(or so I've been lead to believe) It's quite a bit harder to unite the countries. for the Peru-Bolivia Confederacy who is just starting it's bid for uniting the spanish speakers one of it's biggest challenges is simply surviving the initial onslaught before having a slightly easier time uniting the disparate peoples.

La Plata has a similar but not as severe time as Mexico.

All 5 parties able to unite Colonial Spain(Mexico, Peru-Bolivia, Gran Colombia, La Plata, and the underdog USCA) need to take Cuba and ensure a stable Central America as shows of power and stability.

Obviously they need to dominate their area of the map as well before they are seen as credible unifiers and yet retain a low BB before they try anything like diplomatic annexations.

Mexico needs to show itself as equal to the U.S. reclaim all it's territories in Central America, kick the Spanish out of the caribbean so it can be the protector of the remaining spanish colonies and take at least the Dominican Republic so it is seen as the Spanish U.S.A. Mexico has the hardest time because it will not have the grace of annexing half of South America like the three main South American nations will meaning it will have a tougher time getting them to agree.

So basically I want it to roll like this, -minor power- > -semi cultural union- > -regional cultural union- > the Great Danubian Federation event chain where South America decides if it wants to unite with you. or in other words,

Ecuador unites into Gran Colombia, Gran Colombia unites the North and South Andeans into one state, Gran Colombia creates "the United Council for Latin America", Gran Colombia convinces each of the "nations" a grand union is in order to compete with the world through tact, diplomacy, and occasional brute military force, The Latin American Union is formed granting you a beautiful map painted with your font from California to Patagonia and having all those Spanish speakers as accepted cultures.
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So then this is why I bring this to the history forum, How real is this? I have a lot more events pertaining to the U.S.A. and Great Britain seeing the south Unite into more of a threat, I have designs for a complete collapse if the player starts messing around and pissing everyone off, I really want to know if you guys think Management is a huge problem in this scenario and I should require an enormous amount of research into some administration techs or something, most of my key techs are nationalism ones(goal is you want the peoples to feel "Latino" not "Argentine" ya dig?)

I want to know where I should work on, I want you to ask me a question if you don't know if I have already tried hitting that area, I want questions and criticisms, and not just "-COUNTRY- sucked during this time period, never coulda happened. It's alt history, Mexico was still seen as a rival of the U.S. in 1836. I want good critiques and ESPECIALLY the use of game lingo if you know it.

I bring this to history forum for this is more a question on Historical realism, not mod making, but if you know the game well maybe you could say specific techs or years or whatever.

Please shoot anything at me, I welcome all comments to help me understand more on the matter and inspire.

 

[cacra]

Danubian federation of South America is a good comparison - inherently unstable. By 1836 the cultural differences between the South American countries were massive, I wouldn't add any events making any other cultures accepted/adding cores.

 

[User29]

In 1836 there was still the PBC trying to do what Bolivar wanted. at least in my mind the idea of a greater Spanish Unity wasn't out the window, and at least for the purposes of my mod I like to keep it as realistic until 1900, in 1900 everything stops and there is no way to unite into the mega-union.

I may be stretching it, but I think because this is alternate history and in real life all attempts to unite the Latin Amercian world died almost as soon as they started there was no chance for a greater nationalism, I think if a great power were to have emerged with eyes solely on the idea of a pan-latin american union, it's at least vaguely feasible.

 

[cacra]

It was perfectly possible, but I can't see people simply abandoning their national identities for the promise of stability. That being said it is completely up to you, I would add something regarding the Falklands though - any nation inheriting Argentina would inherit their claim.

 

[User29]

oh no no, much more than that, I'm making events regarding how the U.S. and Britain react to a growing empire under their noses uniting spherelings and other nations who buy your hard made british goods, they have to decide whether or not to enact the Monroe Doctrine. and if you want to guarantee Argentina voting yes on centralizing the United Latin League(the U.N. of Latin America) you need to get them the Falklands back. I haven't decided if buying the Falklands could have ever happened though. I'm leaning towards making like 3-4 events where you need to trade Hawaii or some other prime colony spot to Britain for them to trade Falklands to you. Buying territory has always seemed too cheap(no pun intended)

 

[Andrelvis]

"Latin America" as a term wouldn't exist then. It was coined and popularized during the reign of Napoleon III (who was French emperor from 1852 to 1870), when he sought to capitalize on the cultural similarities between France and the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking American countries. There's also the issue that Latin America also includes Brazil, which isn't Spanish-speaking. "Hispano-America" would probably be a better name for the country.

 

[Amallric]

Well there is a lot of things to say. You must know that in OTL Latin America was pretty much a British economical colony in the XIXth century, with attempts by France(in the 1860s) and the US(mostly the South) to seize parts of it. So obviously there would be consequences if a powerful state was set up in South America and attempted to fight against British influence. A war could be triggered by a disagreement over tariffs and economical preferencies. I guess your state could try and seek French protection against Britain. It would also have to deal with the hostility of the US South states("manifest destiny") and encroaching by English-speaking colonists. At the end of the period important events are immigration(historically to Argentina, mostly Italians) and the rubber boom in Amazonia. Your state could well invade the area, after all it was mostly unclaimed tribal land, Brazil could be easily reduced to the southern coastal areas that were culturally Portugueuse. But I do not know how all of this could be represented in a game.

 

[User29]

"Latin America" as a term wouldn't exist then. It was coined and popularized during the reign of Napoleon III (who was French emperor from 1852 to 1870), when he sought to capitalize on the cultural similarities between France and the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking American countries. There's also the issue that Latin America also includes Brazil, which isn't Spanish-speaking. "Hispano-America" would probably be a better name for the country.

I agree fully, but think Hispano America sucks and Latin America is a way more widespread term, So I'm going to stick to Latin America cause it sounds better, however know that I don't use the term until years after the year would have been invented

 

[User29]

Actually I do have an event in mind for the Amazon, It's going to be set up much in the same way the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo is set up for Mexico. There will be one war where the PBC or Gran Colombia trashes Brazil and Brazil agrees to a series of economic treaties as well as surrendering the Amazon(no revocation of cores though) and one little province so the borders look right.

 

[Andrelvis]

Well there is a lot of things to say. You must know that in OTL Latin America was pretty much a British economical colony in the XIXth century, with attempts by France(in the 1860s) and the US(mostly the South) to seize parts of it. So obviously there would be consequences if a powerful state was set up in South America and attempted to fight against British influence. A war could be triggered by a disagreement over tariffs and economical preferencies. I guess your state could try and seek French protection against Britain. It would also have to deal with the hostility of the US South states("manifest destiny") and encroaching by English-speaking colonists. At the end of the period important events are immigration(historically to Argentina, mostly Italians) and the rubber boom in Amazonia. Your state could well invade the area, after all it was mostly unclaimed tribal land, Brazil could be easily reduced to the southern coastal areas that were culturally Portugueuse. But I do not know how all of this could be represented in a game.

? By 1836, most of Brazil was already culturally Portuguese, it was just sparsely populated.

 

[User29]

? By 1836, most of Brazil was already culturally Portuguese, it was just sparsely populated.

I think he meant in comparison to the tribal Amazonian peoples.

And I just wanted to mention Brazil is also gonna get some love in my mod through some cool Conquest decisions. infamy heavy, but conquer key provinces of the primitive Spanish speakers for the good of South America!

 

[Andrelvis]

Historically, Paraguay sought to conquer Matto Grosso from Brazil, so it might be a nice idea to add an event or decision related to that to the mod (i.e. giving Paraguay a claim on Matto Grosso if it fulfills the correct conditions). It is also not far-fetched for Argentina to have an event giving it a claim on Rio Grande do Sul (there were historically disputes between Argentina and Brazil for a part of the province's territory, and its territory had belonged to Spain at one time, being later ceded to Portugal).

 

[User29]

Historically, Paraguay sought to conquer Matto Grosso from Brazil, so it might be a nice idea to add an event or decision related to that to the mod (i.e. giving Paraguay a claim on Matto Grosso if it fulfills the correct conditions). It is also not far-fetched for Argentina to have an event giving it a claim on Rio Grande do Sul (there were historically disputes between Argentina and Brazil for a part of the province's territory, and its territory had belonged to Spain at one time, being later ceded to Portugal).

already done. even have a decision so you can become a proper empire of Paraguay switching you from Pres. Dictatorship to Absolute Monarchy and give you some prestige. You have to win the war first though.

 

[Andrelvis]

already done. even have a decision so you can become a proper empire of Paraguay switching you from Pres. Dictatorship to Absolute Monarchy and give you some prestige. You have to win the war first though.

Nice

 

[Pellaken]

I've not read any posts, only the title and the part of the OP

The reason is, I can not see a great power Mexico existing with a USA that is anything more than a regional power on par with modern day (or better yet, decade-ago) Brazil.

Given that, Mexico just plain replace the USA in terms of role in the world.

 

[User29]

Why? the U.S. was the one that wanted Mexican lands, Mexico had very limited claims on U.S. soil, they wouldn't need nor want to bash U.S. power.

 

[Andrelvis]

I've not read any posts, only the title and the part of the OP

The reason is, I can not see a great power Mexico existing with a USA that is anything more than a regional power on par with modern day (or better yet, decade-ago) Brazil.

Given that, Mexico just plain replace the USA in terms of role in the world.

I disagree. I think it is theoretically possible for a Mexico that is a great power to exist, and be capable to at least protect its lands from the USA, with the USA existing alongside it. Specially since power projection for Mexico would be more difficult northwards than southwards, considering how Mexico's population is situated.

 

[Andrelvis]

Why? the U.S. was the one that wanted Mexican lands, Mexico had very limited claims on U.S. soil, they wouldn't need nor want to bash U.S. power.

Yes, although if you want you could create events or decisions that give Mexico claims to the Spanish Louisiana and to Florida (they both belonged to the Viceroyalty of New Spain at one point).

 

[User29]

Yes, although if you want you could create events or decisions that give Mexico claims to the Spanish Louisiana and to Florida (they both belonged to the Viceroyalty of New Spain at one point).

I've considered it, but Louisiana definitely is Dixie enough and Florida would have weird borders so I've instead decided a couple of "assert border claims" for Colorado and the Northwest territories.

Plus in the mod there is already a "refute manifest destiny" which grants claims on Oklahoma and Colorado, but I've already changed it so the U.S. can't do its manifest destiny if Mexico is a Great Power.

If you GP before U.S. can claim Manifest Destiny you can use the assorted "Assert Claim on Oklahoma" "Assert Claim on Colorado" and "Assert Claim on the Northwest Territories"

I'll look back at the possibility of taking the states Louisiana and Florida for a "Assert Claims on the Gulf provinces" but there can't be a contiguous border like there was during colonial times due to Mississippi and Alabama stealing some of the coastline. It would look VERY nice if Mexico could claim a mare nostrum, but sadly the province borders don't allow it.

I'll post a reply on whether or not the borders for Louisiana and Florida aren't god awful, but my two biggest problems are

Florida won't be contiguous

Louisiana is too Dixie by 1836-1850 w/e you grab back the claim