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Imgran

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Anyone remember when Brittany survived all the way through to the end game at least 50% of the time and usually finished the game with its initial 4 provinces plus a small handful of colonies? Thanks to the complete lack of regard for the the complete lack of balance that is Superfrance (which takes a nation that certainly was powerful in real history and cranks that power up to 11 and then again up to 15) it just never survives to accomplish that anymore. It went from a state with a bit of potential to maintain its independence into a Granada a few patches ago. One of the nations like Provence, Granada, Byzantium, etc that pretty much just exists to be eaten and has little to no chance to actually maintain independence.

I just realized that it's been a very very very long time since I saw Brittany do anything interesting, probably since before Art of War. I wonder what changed.

Personally I suspect that the death of Brittany as a valid state has a lot to do with the focus the devs have put into maintaining the great European powers (other than England of course since obviously who cares about buffing England) as relevant and powerful and likely to remain so until the end of the game. The casualties are obviously the secondary powers that eventually do get absorbed, like Scotland, the Irish minors, Brittany and Granada, who do fall to the great powers but certainly not in the first 15 years of the game like happens frequently in EUIV. States that maintained their freedom for centuries of in game time are out of the game almost as soon as you start the clock.

Not sure what to do about it really, and I do think it's important to have some super weak states lying around that are playable for players who like a big challenge, but I do think that little states like Brittany should have better ways to stave off outright invasion of the big nations around them. For example, Korea frequently stayed independent by offering tribute to whoever was the bully on the block, usually China. That really isn't an option in game, there is no way to be a tributary state other than becoming a vassal, and the two don't really go hand in hand at all. So Korea gets eaten half the time unless it can expand against the Jurchens or unless Ming collapses (which is a whole nother issue). Maybe a tribute mechanic and a way to really placate AI nations should be in the game. I'll leave that to the Devs to sort out. But the demise of the bit power states in EUIV is real, they used to be a lot more viable than they are now.
 
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impspy

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Well, let's think, what happened to Brittany historically?
This.
However, I do agree that a tributary system should be a part of the game, especially in places like India or East Asia where even the most powerful empires still lacked the type of strong centralization that they are portrayed as having ingame.
Moreover, it is too easy to fabricate claims and declare war, especially in places like Europe where many small states survived until the Napoleonic era for a varietty of reasons. Instead of eating Brittany piecemeal, France should get missions to PU Brittany.
 
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Selvas

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If you want to see outcomes where Brittany is not eaten then try playing w/o lucky nations. More often than not France gets dogpiled in my games when it is not lucky.
 
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Xinkc

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Brittany usually gets eaten by Provence, not France.

This. France is often pathetic since the English often keep their continental holdings and freaking Provence at least survives with its Anjou provinces and the entirety of Brittany. Sometimes they break free from them in revolt but it is Provence, not really France, that eats Brittany.
 

wolffrnd

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Brittany usually gets eaten by Provence, not France.
Funny thing....for me it is the exact opposite. Brittany usually eats Anjou and Maine, and is then later eaten by France.

Also, I think the reason that Brittany no longer survives into the late game is that their culture is now a sub-culture of the French. It used to be that it wasn't (I think it used to be connected to the Welsh culture on the British Isles), and I think that makes France want it more. Though, this is just a guess on my part.
 
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Incompetent

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France is not OP at the moment. They frequently get wrecked by Burgundy, England and surrounding minor states, including Brittany sometimes. (England has been buffed a few times, by the way, and now has a very strong start - it's only held back by the limitations of the AI when it comes to using its navy.)

Brittany is bound to have trouble surviving given the way EU4 works, though: it is a) small and b) backed into a corner of the continent. Fairly soon they end up with one blob as their only neighbour, and they have nowhere to go except overseas. Colonies take quite a while to be a major source of power, especially for an AI country starting with a limited income.
 
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EnricoMettifogo

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my last game, a otto one-tag WC, brittany ate provence and survived a lot (until I ate them myself)
i often see brittany surviving, sometimes smaller, others bigger, so i don't see the problem really
 

wraithstalke

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Yeah and no. France is weaker. But often it takes it around 150 years to eat all the french region, even if early on it loses ground.

Like seeing England keep (Gascony? Dax?) in the south for a while is common now, but France will usually return to dominance.
 

Darkrenown

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In the [public version] game I just finished they ate their neighbor and had a fair sized colony in Brazil while France blobbed east :cool:
 

SchwarzerKaiser

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My first game in 1.13 had Brittany survive and happily colonize Africa and some pacific islands.
 

Kapitalisti

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I've seen Brittany survive (at least I as Britain come and take them into my protection), blob a bit if France fails or get eaten by either France or the country that replaces it. I don't see anything wrong with very small and relatively poor countries next to huge countries getting devoured. Ottomans destroy the Anatolian beyliks, Britain runs over Ireland, Russia destroys the hordes and small countries in its area, all perfectly fine, historical and understandable.
 

hashinshin

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I think Brittany is one of those "doomed states" we always talk about.

1 It is pushed against a much larger stronger enemy

2. It historically died pretty much without a struggle.

That's pretty much the 1 and 2 definition of a doomed state that I don't really care about the preservation of.
 

Secuter

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Well, let's think, what happened to Brittany historically?
This.
However, I do agree that a tributary system should be a part of the game, especially in places like India or East Asia where even the most powerful empires still lacked the type of strong centralization that they are portrayed as having ingame.
Moreover, it is too easy to fabricate claims and declare war, especially in places like Europe where many small states survived until the Napoleonic era for a varietty of reasons. Instead of eating Brittany piecemeal, France should get missions to PU Brittany.

PU them? No, they should vasalize them
 

zeredek

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Personally I suspect that the death of Brittany as a valid state
I suspect it beings a French culture group now and AI probably prioritizes culture group before non-culture group when it comes to eating
 

Kapitalisti

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Just out of curiosity, was there a time when Brittany was not doomed?
 
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Panzerschiffe

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If you want to see outcomes where Brittany is not eaten then try playing w/o lucky nations. More often than not France gets dogpiled in my games when it is not lucky.

France gets utterly destroyed without lucky nations. The burgundian inheritance rarely happens so France just gets smaller as time goes by. I find that trying to help France survive in those games is quite fun.

Britanny usually ends up getting Anjou and Maine and then starts eating small chunks inland.