I may have figured out the AI inflation problem in DW... [Mercenary ideas thread]

[Menocchio]

In defines

3.0 #_MDEF_MERCENARY_MAINTENANCE_
0.1 # Amount of regiment strength reinforced each month.
0.1 # Ship repair speed.
0.3 # Tradition gain base value from combats.
0.2 # Tradition cost in percentage to recruit a leader.
12 # Maximum sized mercenary pool
1.0 # _MDEF_FRONT_LINE_MODIFIER_
0.5 # _MDEF_BACK_LINE_MODIFIER_

In static_modifiers

mercenary_cost = 0.5

How can I do to reduce the cost of mantaining mercenary troops, and increase the cost of hiring them?
Btw, how can I reduce the inflaction that the AI suffers from minting?

 

[delra]

It's in defines.txt:

3.0 #_MDEF_MERCENARY_MAINTENANCE_

Any suggestions what it should be modded to? I think 1.0 would be a bit too convenient allowing standing armies of mercenaries to walk this Earth like they were normal troops.

EDIT: Damn you Menocchio for emu-ing me. ;-)

 

[Menocchio]

It's in defines.txt:



Any suggestions what it should be modded to? I think 1.0 would be a bit too convenient allowing standing armies of mercenaries to walk this Earth like they were normal troops.

EDIT: Damn you Menocchio for emu-ing me. ;-)

Yes. But we need too to make mercenaries much more expensive to hire. To compensate.

 

[3Form]

Standing armies didn't really exist in the early part of the EU timeframe. I think maybe the Turks had professional soldiers and by the end of the 15th century France had a standing army created by Charles VII. England didn't employ a professional army until the 17th century as far as I remember. Point is, mercenaries were the professional soldiers in EU3's era. That is, aside from peasant levies who fought for their lords in exchange for getting to eat.

I think of them as being similar to the companies that formed in England during the hundred years war. Soldiers turned professional by circumstance, who grouped together into companies that fought together over multiple campaigns, and were recruited as such - rather than the mass proclamation of a call to arms a la France's arriere ban.
Or perhaps more like the freebooters who didn't fight for a wage or out of loyalty to a lord, but more for the booty they'd recieve from a chevauchee.

 

[Taylor]

I always thought mercenaries were underdeveloped in EU3 (and 2 for that matter ). In EU3, you usually rely heavily on troops raised from your own manpower, while IRL, especially in the early days, most armies were mercenary armies. And then there's immersion that's missing: e.g. IRL, mercenary armies sometimes revolted when they weren't payed. This doesn't happen in EU3.

Some solution suggestions: like suggested before, a mercenary maintenance slider - putting it lower would make it possible that existing mercenary units revolt; drastically reduced manpower (in the provinces) and maintenance limit; normal army costs the same as mercenary army, plus raising a mercenary army should cost much less (it's the maintenance that should be costly); but maybe a morale bonus for normal armies vs mercenary armies.

 

[Jazumir]

I´d say, instead of an additional slider, have events that occasionally (with an additional check upon disbanding) pop up if you have mercenaries, and which they ask for additional compensation. And if you do not grant it -> revolt. That´s probably easier to implement.

I agree, that manpower in provinces, or rather the national limit for regiments, should be nerfed big time. I acutally think, it should be zero, and each barracks might give one regiment or whatnot... So that for a standing army, you´d need quite a bit of infrastructure.

Regulars ----- Mercs

maintainance adjustable 50-100% ----- maintainance fixed at >=100% + events

do not revolt by themselves ----- revolt if event-request is denied

if at low maintainance increases revolt risk of province, otherwise reducing it ----- always slight positive (decreasing it) impact on RR

can be bribed to go home ----- can be bribed to change sides

DIC and MOR depend on nation ---- DIC and MOR always the same until rebellion and tend to be rather high
...

 

[George LeS]

It would also help if we could disband them by event/decision.

Since it's very unlikely we're going to get a real merc fix, I'm a fan of the infantry-only idea.

 

[jju_57]

So the problem is that the AI suffers from inflation and it wrecks their economy. The suggestion is that building tons of mercs is the cause. If this is really the cause/effect the solution is to build less of them or limit their numbers.

Using mercs isn't the problem. Small OPM that are rich traders but MP poor should rely on them. Big blobs can use some but they would make up a small percentage of the army. This should be supported in the game.

The line # 12 Maximum Sized Mercenary Pool looks interesting. Does this mean they can only have 12 units?

If the OPM's and even big countries were limited to only a few units would this help solve the inflation problem? If not then we can question if building mers is the cause. The line from the defines looks to be a limit of 12 units. Twelve units doesn't seem to be alot to where it would cause 50% inflation. So either the line doesn't limit mers or merc building isn't the cause.

The first step is to know what that line does and run a test with it at 1 and at 50. See if this changes the AI inflation issue and if it does impact number of mercs.

 

[vcgetdown]

Would work, but this means the AI is stuck at 10 inflation, unless they outmint the amount you set. AI OPMs aren't a threat anyway, unless you're a bordering OPM I guess.

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
		inflation = 10
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.5
	icon = 1
}

You could always do this. Just using 8 as an example.

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
		inflation = 10
                num_of_cities = 8
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.5
	icon = 1

I'm not terribly experienced with modding EU3 files, which file do I add this to? I was kind of assuming I could just make a random .txt file and just add it in and it would work, right?

 

[colinljx]

I have modded my own game so that AIs (and humans, though not needed) can reduce inflation using magistrates, and it seems to be working so far... It is fairly easy to write a national/provincial decision, so maybe you guys should give it a try and see how helpful it is to the AIs.

As for the over using of worthless mercs, an easy and simple solution is to make their morale significantly higher than early standing armies (to justify the high prices). After all, mercs were generally better than armies made of peasants.

This is the code I wrote under construction.txt for inflation reduction:
country_decisions = {
inflation_reduction = {
potential = {
}
allow = {
officials = 4
inflation = 1
}
effect = {
inflation = -1
officials = -4
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

 

[Me_]

I'm not terribly experienced with modding EU3 files, which file do I add this to? I was kind of assuming I could just make a random .txt file and just add it in and it would work, right?

Add it at the end of triggered_modifiers.txt in common (folder)

 

[luitzen]

I also have a suggestion. What if mercenaries would be allowed to be trained to become regular regiments in peacetime for a small monetary and manpower cost. I don't know how realistic that would be or what the costs would need to be, but that way the AI can still recruit mercenaries when it needs them and get rid of them rather easily when they're unnecessary and only cost lots of money. The only exploit I could see is to allow the recruitment of big numbers of soldiers faster then should be allowed, but allowing this function only in peacetime would prevent that for the bigger part and by making the costs of recruiting mercenaries and converting them to regulars substantially larger than just recruiting regulars would also make it rather unattractive to do so when your manpower is low or your war exhaustion high.

 

[luitzen]

The line # 12 Maximum Sized Mercenary Pool looks interesting. Does this mean they can only have 12 units?

If the OPM's and even big countries were limited to only a few units would this help solve the inflation problem? If not then we can question if building mers is the cause. The line from the defines looks to be a limit of 12 units. Twelve units doesn't seem to be alot to where it would cause 50% inflation. So either the line doesn't limit mers or merc building isn't the cause.

The first step is to know what that line does and run a test with it at 1 and at 50. See if this changes the AI inflation issue and if it does impact number of mercs.

The mercenary pool is the total number of mercenaries which can be recruited in a certain regions (I don't know how these regions are defined) at a single time. For each mercenary unit the mercenary pool decreases by 1 and when it's below it maximum, it slowly increases over time. So if you want to recruit 100 mercenaries, you'll still be able to do so, but it would just take a huge amount of time, if you had to rely on one mercenary pool.

 

[jju_57]

There are two tracks here. The first is what if anything can be done to the current game to improve or fix it. Most likely this will be a moodifier to the files. The other track is what can be done in a future patch or expansion. While this is something to consider I think the first one is much more pressing of an issue.

 

[zParsifal]

Why not increase the initial hiring cost for mercenaries and reduce the maintenance to the level of ordinary troops?

Standing armies didn't really exist in the early part of the EU timeframe. I think maybe the Turks had professional soldiers and by the end of the 15th century France had a standing army created by Charles VII. England didn't employ a professional army until the 17th century as far as I remember. Point is, mercenaries were the professional soldiers in EU3's era.

@Moltke: In that case, I think Kommando23's suggestion is good. Just say that soldiers are mercenaries, and turn off the mercenary feature. "Standing army" could be a national idea.

 

[George LeS]

1. The trouble with changing the size of the merc pool is that you still get only the top 4 units. Further, since it will not empty so quickly, it is possible that the AI will get even deeper in trouble here, as it may hire more mercs.

2. I cannot see any reason that mercs, as they are now, should have higher maintenance than regular units. Sure, if they worked in a realistic manner, this would be a feature. But they don't, they aren't going to do so any time soon, and therefore, for now, I'd suggest lowering that factor to 1, or maybe lower. Lower, because they are in fact inferior to regulars, once they are in play. Their morale is worse, they don't count for trad when they fight, and they never upgrade. Against this there is only the lack of WE.

@jju_57: Yes, I think you are exactly right. The above comments are my own take, in this light. That is not to say (nor do you say it) that a revision isn't in order. There are several threads out there which offer interesting ideas; I know Capt Gars had some very good ideas, himself. But we can only offer suggestions to Paradox, at that level. What we need now, is ideas for currently feasible fixes.

@colinljx: That's an interesting idea. Do you mind if I take it and modify it for RM?

 

[Evie HJ]

The fundamental advantage of mercenaries is that they were full-time military men (like standing armies) that you (in theory) needed only pay at war time (like levies). Since most nations early in the era would have had a hard time paying full-time military men, this offered something of a compromise (though with the downsides illustrated by Machiavelli).

Of course, in EU, the difference between levies and standing armies is that one is a unit you build to keep, and the is the exact same unit when you disband it after whichever war you built it for. Given that they're both equal units, mercenaries have no niche to fit in, other than manpower avoidance. Which, at the price tag they carry, lead directly to the noted problems.

 

[jju_57]

So if it is proven that mercs are the cause of the inflation problem how do we turn them completley off? Is this a simple modification or does it take PI to do it? If we can mod it we can also run a few tests to see if it works or if the AI replaces mercs with regular army and the inflation issue is still there.

 

[grommile]

Try setting the size of the mercenary pool to zero. See if the game still runs.

 

[Nutcracker]

So the problem is that the AI suffers from inflation and it wrecks their economy. The suggestion is that building tons of mercs is the cause. If this is really the cause/effect the solution is to build less of them or limit their numbers.

Using mercs isn't the problem. Small OPM that are rich traders but MP poor should rely on them. Big blobs can use some but they would make up a small percentage of the army. This should be supported in the game.

The line # 12 Maximum Sized Mercenary Pool looks interesting. Does this mean they can only have 12 units?

If the OPM's and even big countries were limited to only a few units would this help solve the inflation problem? If not then we can question if building mers is the cause. The line from the defines looks to be a limit of 12 units. Twelve units doesn't seem to be alot to where it would cause 50% inflation. So either the line doesn't limit mers or merc building isn't the cause.

The first step is to know what that line does and run a test with it at 1 and at 50. See if this changes the AI inflation issue and if it does impact number of mercs.

12 mercs kept over many years adds up to a LOT if revenue. Bear in mind their monthly maintenance is many times greater than that of regular units. For a midsize Reich to have anywhere near that number (like Denmark in my example), when they could be using cheaper regular units, still equates to financial suicide.