I may have figured out the AI inflation problem in DW... [Mercenary ideas thread]

[Nutcracker]

Many of you will be familiar with the issues that the AI seems to have with managing their inflation since Divine Wind.

Having played a lot of HTTT the familiar inflation pattern for mid-large size AI Reichs was a steady increase leading into the early midgame before a consistent disinflation set in for the remainder of the game. Incidentally this was a similar pattern to what i as a human player followed - early minting to finance an outsized military to help with expansion, followed by an economic consolidation once i had established a Reich of critical mass.

Conversely in Divine Wind, a large portion of AI countries persist with ever-increasing inflation right up into the lategame, with hugely damaging results. After forming Germany from Brunswick in an MP game - in the late 1700s we were confronted with a blobbed Burgundy, Castille and Great Britain, all suffering from over 50% inflation - crippling them with a massive tech and cost base disadvantage and removing any potential AI challenge. Incidentally this was played on Hard so probably would have been even worse without their usual income bonus.

Lately i commenced a Luneburg - Germany game on Hard, but after getting bored after about 75 years i started tagswitching to play around and help some AI countries blob. What i found was a consistent pattern of overuse of mercenaries necessitating massive minting. When i rolled in as Denmark the majority of their army was mercenary, crippling them financially. A similar story was present for the large Hungary at the time, and even France was relying on mercenaries far too much, despite having 100K manpower.

The AI seems to love spamming mercenaries when they run into manpower constraints, which on some level is fair enough - but the problem is they are never disbanded at peace and replaced with regular units to alleviate the financial burden once manpower is normalised.

I am also not convinced that it is solely a manpower-triggered decision due to the example of France in my game, unless they were "leftover" from earlier times and auto-upgraded (do mercs do this?).

This is one aspect of AI behaviour that the devs might want to look at in the upcoming patch as it can affect gameplay considerably. In our MP game we eventually had to just edit the savegame files to give the AI zero inflation.

 

[Ifernat]

Is it possible that the issue is due to how the AI decides to replaces losses (on a time basis) either by hiring mercenaries or recruiting regular units. I ask because I've noticed that many AI countries run with constantly high war exhaustion which dramatically increases recruitment time for the player. Does it do the same for the AI? If so its possible that the AI is hiring mercenaries because that's the only unit it can field on a timely basis.

 

[unmerged(277230)]

When I saw this thread, I figured it was just some noobish idea that had no base but... This actually sounds like it has some base to it.

 

[Moltke]

overuse of mercenaries necessitating massive minting.

Mercenaries are nothing more than a tax on the poor AI. They desperately need to be overhauled.

The hordes also put a strain on the AI in the form of colonists. The AI *must* colonize the hordes if it is able, it knows no other way. In 1400 colonists are tremendously expensive for fledgling nations, and in addition the hordes just wipe out their attempts. That's money down the drain for the AI.

I don't want to see the AI given any unfair "tricks" to combat these problems, I'm convinced Paradox can figure out an ingenious solution as they have before. I just hope they have identified it as a problem and don't consider it WAD.

Maybe mercenaries could be paid at the end of a campaign (after peace is signed) similar to how loans are repaid after 5 years. You either pay them the lump sum they are owed or they revolt.

Or maybe mercenaries shouldn't even be recruitable in the same way as regular regiments. Perhaps a diplomat could be used to create a "mercenary corps" that comes with its own funding slider beneath the regular military maintenance. The more money you put in, the more mercs you get over time and when you cut funding they dissipate proportionately. There just needs to be a way to fill the corps fast in an emergency in a way that won't bankrupt the AI so that it can stand a chance when attacked.

Maybe the forums should have an official "ideas thread" for fixing mercenaries.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

Even Burgundy with it's cheap mercs still can't afford to keep them. I don't think the AI should prioritize them, period.

As with the OP, all of my recent games, once about 1600 rolls around I like to do a mass overview and see how my competition is faring. It's more than common to have it revealed your enemies have been tanking their economy the entire game.

Moltke has an excellent idea about mercs being paid on completion of task.

But seriously, I've never bothered to use them. All my games end up where I have a maintainable standing army that, used intelligently, can stand up to any threat. By the time I have enough surplus cash to where I COULD use them, I'm sporting LT22 troops while all they offer are basic 1399 troops. Complete waste of time and money.

 

[MichaelM]

But seriously, I've never bothered to use them. All my games end up where I have a maintainable standing army that, used intelligently, can stand up to any threat. By the time I have enough surplus cash to where I COULD use them, I'm sporting LT22 troops while all they offer are basic 1399 troops. Complete waste of time and money.

That's supposed to have been fixed in one of the betas. Is it not?

 

[Misan]

A long time ago I reduced the modifier from 300% to like 170%

I also use

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.60
	icon = 1
}

But that's just a stupid bandaid

 

[Nutcracker]

A long time ago I reduced the modifier from 300% to like 170%

I also use

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.60
	icon = 1
}

But that's just a stupid bandaid

Is that just a flat bonus? I was hoping to implement something that kicked in when the AI had over a certain level of inflation - say 10 - with a minus 0.5 inflation bonus. Otherwise you dramatically overpower non-minting OPM's...

Any idea how to do that?

 

[Boris ze Spider]

Is that just a flat bonus? I was hoping to implement something that kicked in when the AI had over a certain level of inflation - say 10 - with a minus 0.5 inflation bonus. Otherwise you dramatically overpower non-minting OPM's...

Any idea how to do that?

Maybe add a " inflat.on = 10.00 " under potential, but this is coming from a non-modder, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Nutcracker]

When I saw this thread, I figured it was just some noobish idea that had no base but... This actually sounds like it has some base to it.

Thanks :wacko:

 

[Misan]

Maybe add a " inflat.on = 10.00 " under potential, but this is coming from a non-modder, so take it with a grain of salt.

Would work, but this means the AI is stuck at 10 inflation, unless they outmint the amount you set. AI OPMs aren't a threat anyway, unless you're a bordering OPM I guess.

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
		inflation = 10
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.5
	icon = 1
}

You could always do this. Just using 8 as an example.

ai_inflation = {
	potential = {
		ai = yes
	}
	trigger = {
		inflation = 10
                num_of_cities = 8
	}
	inflation_reduction = 0.5
	icon = 1

 

[Kull1]

But seriously, I've never bothered to use them. All my games end up where I have a maintainable standing army that, used intelligently, can stand up to any threat. By the time I have enough surplus cash to where I COULD use them, I'm sporting LT22 troops while all they offer are basic 1399 troops. Complete waste of time and money.

Good point. I wonder how many human players utilize mercs even once in a game? It does seem like mercenaries were a "good idea" (since it replicates history), but since so few humans ever use them, the feature was never tested thoroughly. And now it appears they are actually a major factor contributing to long term AI failure. Definitely something that Paradox should take a long, hard look at.

 

[Nephrahim]

I used Mercs in my Netherlands game in order to replace losses in my army quickly when I was in a losing war. It's possible the AI does the same, but that doesn't justify the inflation.

That said, they seem a bit reliant on them in odd ways. I saw Denmark with a bunch of mercs for no decernable reason. No more then 10% of their army, but still.

 

[slaneesh]

Thanks :wacko:

indeed. Says more about the poster than anyone else.

On topic how about changing the Merc upkeep to be that of normal regiments, or removing them entirely, atleast i would like to test this out. This could also go some way to confirm if this is indeed a major factor in the inflation problem.

 

[delra]

I think we need another add-on to EU3 just to fix mercenaries once and for all. They were poorly executed ever since vanilla and never lived up to their historic role and importance. Now they cripple Ai on top of it...

Myself I just siege all AI provinces where they are training to prevent them from bankrupting themselves too soon.

 

[unmerged(202023)]

On topic how about changing the Merc upkeep to be that of normal regiments, or removing them entirely, atleast i would like to test this out. This could also go some way to confirm if this is indeed a major factor in the inflation problem.

Why not increase the initial hiring cost for mercenaries and reduce the maintenance to the level of ordinary troops?

 

[The Blood Eagle]

Here's a good question:

When in history did mercenaries get paid more than professional armies? Usually they were farmers who fought entire wars for one pouch of coin, while regulars would garner wages.


Edit - the absolute best solution would be to have mercenaries serve the same role that irregulars do in Vicky. Normally recruited troops, but in this case, from a limited pool. Just give them substandard battle stats throughout. Pay them after a war, where they automatically disband, and if you cannot cover their costs, they immediately transform into peasant rebels. Problem solved.

Edit edit - Oh, and limit them to infantry. WTH is up with mercenary cavalry? Maaayyybe in the Tartar lands, but I don't see anywhere else where horses weren't a coveted commodity.

 

[Moltke]

Here's a good question:

When in history did mercenaries get paid more than professional armies?

Standing armies didn't really exist in the early part of the EU timeframe. I think maybe the Turks had professional soldiers and by the end of the 15th century France had a standing army created by Charles VII. England didn't employ a professional army until the 17th century as far as I remember. Point is, mercenaries were the professional soldiers in EU3's era. That is, aside from peasant levies who fought for their lords in exchange for getting to eat.

 

[Me_]

Someone who knows how to mod should play a test game with mercenaries turned off to check two things: are they really the cause of AI inflation? and do AI actually needs them (can it wage war without them)? Perhaps also another game with their upkeep equal to normal troops.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

Standing armies didn't really exist in the early part of the EU timeframe. I think maybe the Turks had professional soldiers and by the end of the 15th century France had a standing army created by Charles VII. England didn't employ a professional army until the 17th century as far as I remember. Point is, mercenaries were the professional soldiers in EU3's era. That is, aside from peasant levies who fought for their lords in exchange for getting to eat.

That's not entirely true, but the system they used for maintaining professional soldiers during peacetime was far different than the regimental systems that came later. More or less you'd have regional barracks that received an annuity for keeping men in fighting condition and ready to arm.

Edit - and watching that army level Lucca on The Borgias was sweeeeet.