I love the map

[Lord_P]

we must not make this a flat earth vs globe thread. but we can end the argument by saying that i am right

We can end the argument. But you are not right.

 

[Brynjar]

we must not make this a flat earth vs globe thread. but we can end the argument by saying that i am right

You are quite right that there is no point derailing the thread arguing it. Noone will probably change their mind anyway.

Can we at least agree that it's ok that Paradox continue developing the game as planned, based on the most complete work on geography from the Roman world we have preserved from the time the game is set in, regardless of it being wrong or not (it's wrong about many things, such as the existance of China and Sub-Saharan Africa)? If for no other reason than to avoid any delays of the launch, or reduced quality of other mechanics. After all, I would think that you are quite used to seeing earth (mis-)represented as a globe

 

[Martynios]

The Seleucids are in a bit of pickle when it comes to naming conventions, as originally they'd have been Babylonia/Mesopotamia and then become Syria if going by regional-capital monikers, and so it's just easier to refer to them as their Dynasty. It's also a little further complicated in that the Seleucids never really adopted local customs like the Ptolemies and preferred to continue Greek colonization across the ME, so there also wouldn't be a local cultural entity that would be easy to identify them with like Egypt (at least early on).

This is why I think all the Successor kingdoms should use dynastic names. The Ottomans aren't called Turkey in EU4 either.

 

[spasticmadman]

The way that the political mode looks up close lets me see the all the pretty terrain features while still showing all the border detail is very nice.

 

[solamyas]

Porque no los dos?

Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Babylonia

 

[hypaspist]

You are quite right that there is no point derailing the thread arguing it. Noone will probably change their mind anyway.

Can we at least agree that it's ok that Paradox continue developing the game as planned, based on the most complete work on geography from the Roman world we have preserved from the time the game is set in, regardless of it being wrong or not (it's wrong about many things, such as the existance of China and Sub-Saharan Africa)? If for no other reason than to avoid any delays of the launch, or reduced quality of other mechanics. After all, I would think that you are quite used to seeing earth (mis-)represented as a globe

just hope it wont feel like google earth while scrolling/moving

 

[Abstracted]

The Seleucids are in a bit of pickle when it comes to naming conventions, as originally they'd have been Babylonia/Mesopotamia and then become Syria if going by regional-capital monikers, and so it's just easier to refer to them as their Dynasty. It's also a little further complicated in that the Seleucids never really adopted local customs like the Ptolemies and preferred to continue Greek colonization across the ME, so there also wouldn't be a local cultural entity that would be easy to identify them with like Egypt (at least early on).

Various ancient writers use "Asia" to refer to the Seleukid kingdom, e.g. I Macc. 11:13, 12:39 or Josephus AJ 12.119. Admittedly, no official document uses the term, but then Hellenistic royal documents avoid any kind of technical vocabulary like the plague. It might be a better option than just "Seleukids" because by the 2nd century the kingdom clearly had a political integrity separate from that of the dynasty (unlike, say, the Ottoman state) - there were several claimants to the throne like Diodotos Tryphon who weren't Seleukids themselves but were recognised as king (even if none of them last very long in the event).

One problem, though, is that Asia is probably also the best name for Antigonos' kingdom at the start of the game - Phrygia was just his original satrapy, and his appointment as "General of Asia" in 320 was more significant.

 

[solamyas]

by the 2nd century the kingdom clearly had a political integrity separate from that of the dynasty (unlike, say, the Ottoman state) - there were several claimants to the throne like Diodotos Tryphon who weren't Seleukids themselves but were recognised as king (even if none of them last very long in the event).

Well, there was a time someone from Giray dynasty of Crimea Khanate was considered as unofficial heir of the Ottoman Sultan by half the court and Janissaries.

 

[Martynios]

Various ancient writers use "Asia" to refer to the Seleukid kingdom, e.g. I Macc. 11:13, 12:39 or Josephus AJ 12.119. Admittedly, no official document uses the term, but then Hellenistic royal documents avoid any kind of technical vocabulary like the plague. It might be a better option than just "Seleukids" because by the 2nd century the kingdom clearly had a political integrity separate from that of the dynasty (unlike, say, the Ottoman state) - there were several claimants to the throne like Diodotos Tryphon who weren't Seleukids themselves but were recognised as king (even if none of them last very long in the event).

One problem, though, is that Asia is probably also the best name for Antigonos' kingdom at the start of the game - Phrygia was just his original satrapy, and his appointment as "General of Asia" in 320 was more significant.

Asia just seems like a really bad name in general.

 

[Abstracted]

Asia just seems like a really bad name in general.

It's a bit of a bombastic claim, isn't it? And if they used it in-game it would probably cause more confusion than it was worth.

On the other hand, it might be a little annoying when the "Seleucid Empire" is being ruled by an entirely different dynasty. Same is true for the Mauryas, now that I come to think about it (who actually were permanently replaced by another dynasty ruling the same kingdom).

 

[Martynios]

It's a bit of a bombastic claim, isn't it? And if they used it in-game it would probably cause more confusion than it was worth.

On the other hand, it might be a little annoying when the "Seleucid Empire" is being ruled by an entirely different dynasty. Same is true for the Mauryas, now that I come to think about it (who actually were permanently replaced by another dynasty ruling the same kingdom).

Do historians still call the Mauryan empire the same after this coup?

 

[Austregisel]

In this case it is better to make the successor kingdoms with the system of the name of the dynasty before the kingdom, in the style of the Muslims and Indians in CK2

 

[Abstracted]

Do historians still call the Mauryan empire the same after this coup?

Older English historiography would call it the Shunga Empire after Shunga takes over, but more modern stuff would just call the whole continuum, from the Nandas through the Mauryas to the Shungas, the kingdom of Magadh.

In this case it is better to make the successor kingdoms with the system of the name of the dynasty before the kingdom, in the style of the Muslims and Indians in CK2

This seems like a good way to handle many of the kingdoms in this period, but you'd have to decide where to draw the line. It doesn't feel like Makedonia should be called the Antipatrid Kingdom, or that Epeiros should be the Aiakid Kingdom.

 

[Austregisel]

A System with the name of dynasty before Kingdom only in Kingdoms with major culture is not the culture of ruler?

 

[Martynios]

This seems like a good way to handle many of the kingdoms in this period, but you'd have to decide where to draw the line. It doesn't feel like Makedonia should be called the Antipatrid Kingdom, or that Epeiros should be the Aiakid Kingdom.

I suppose Epirus and Macedon would be the exceptions, since they were already kingdoms with a distinct identity before the conquests of Alexander. But I think the naming for the realms of Lysimachos, Antigonos, Ptolemaios and Seleukos should be consistently based on dynasty, until the Antigonids take over Macedon.

 

[Lord_P]

In my honest opinion, I would just prefer for realms to have the names they are most well known as (to certain limits), so I support dynastic names for Diadochi realms. Of course, too anachronistic names should be avoided.

 

[SolSys]

So what's the Jomini layer do?

I'd imagine it is the new rendering layer.