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The game is awesome. I have never been so ingulfed by such a low cost game. And I am just starting out. I love strategy games, and this is one of the finest with 1.07.

Originally posted by Dawkins
It would be good if something other than dozens of little rebelions could be used to slow down player war mongering though. Rebels become incredibly tedious very quickly. There must be a better way?

I don't have aspirations of WC in my games and aggree that it should be kept in check. But I would like it if the rebels could be toned down a bit. Fighting all the rebels takes away from my strategizing and becomes tedious.

I would suggest halfing the revolts and adding a economic factor to keep the same outcome and cap on WC. Mainly for gameplay reasons. I don't want an easy game, just would like to keep my focus on all the other great aspects of the game.
 

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What would *really* be interesting is to create a matrix of all cultures and religions and devise a "path system" such that you could count how many "steps removed" any given culture/religion combination was from any other. The more steps removed = different sorts of rebellion troubles, such that:

French/Catholic nation conquering a German/Catholic province would be fairly similar, actually, and not terribly many steps removed. Their "form" of rebellion would start off as an economic/manpower pinch, and if left unchecked, would eventually shut down the province's income entirely. If still left unchecked, their dissatisfaction could begin to manifest itself in the form of piracy/banditry (the landward equivalent), and if left unchecked longer still, outright armed defiance.

Conversely, a French/Catholic nation conquering an Ottoman/Sunni province (a significant difference and "number of steps removed" would likely find rebellion expressing itself solely in the form of armed riots.

Stuff like that.

-=Vel=-
 

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Originally posted by Velociryx
MJames - you CAN play how you want! Wanna take over the world as Tuscany?

Start a game. Press f12, type in "alba", press f12 again, then enter, and have at it!

If you want to play a more historically constrained game, don't follow the above steps.

I guess I'm not quite sure where the lack of choice is??

-=Vel=-

Actually the more historic game would be to enter the Alba cheat.

Revolts were either deadly serious threats to the monarch, or rabble with pitchforks, new of which would not replace the discussion of the day's hunt on a monarch's "to do" list.

Don't confuse game play mechanics and historicality, just because it's in EU does not make it historic, and less so from 1.06 on.
 

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Not to worry....I'm not confusing the two.

I said "historically constrained" - Granted, the rebellion model is artificial, but its *presence* in the current form constrains nations to a large degree, and is one of the more powerful (some would say bludgeoning) tools to attempt to prevent WC--which is certainly not historical.

-=Vel=-
 

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Originally posted by Velociryx
Not to worry....I'm not confusing the two.

I said "historically constrained" - Granted, the rebellion model is artificial, but its *presence* in the current form constrains nations to a large degree, and is one of the more powerful (some would say bludgeoning) tools to attempt to prevent WC--which is certainly not historical.

-=Vel=-


Yes I agree, as an abstracted mechanism (ie) cash to build troops to kill rebels, it does kind of work.

It just does give the impression that Europe was a revolter's paradise during the period.
 

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We're on the same side of the fence then....I absolutely agree that it's not accurate in and of itself (since there are prolly more rebellions in any decade of Eu2 than there were in the entire span of time the game represents!), but as an artificial construct, it does a passing good job of approximating historical outcomes. Of course, if they're shopping for ideas to improve that.....:D

-=Vel=-
 

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I'm afraid I have to disagree. I liked the game before, but I think changes are now being driven by machoists who merely want more and more of a challenge. But there are people who play the game to be entertained, and as one of them, I don't find endless rebellions and absurd limitations to be fun. They're just exasperating when you have goals other than difficulty. When you win because the AI is stupid, and loose because of AI cheats and limitations only placed upon the human player, the result seems to more stupid than fun.

In a recent game as Ryazan, my country almost collapsed because of war exhaustion by being dragged into alliance wars. I never fought, but my allies did well despite massive losses because of the WE cap for AI players. I ended up having to take out 4 loans and go bankrupt in order to pay off my enemies, despite the fact that no actual fighting between us ocurred.

Later, I managed to devastate the Golden Horde, depite the fact that their main army was 4 times the size of my only army. Why? Because after 6 months, the GH army sat down in Tambow and did not move for 4 years!

(This was on normal, by the way)

Before, the stupid AI could be ignored, because at least you, the player, were doing interesting things. Now, the player is crippled, so unless you live for hardships, the prime interest in the game is watching the AI do wierd and wacky things, imagining what it would be like in Real Life.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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Originally posted by Velociryx
We're on the same side of the fence then....I absolutely agree that it's not accurate in and of itself (since there are prolly more rebellions in any decade of Eu2 than there were in the entire span of time the game represents!), but as an artificial construct, it does a passing good job of approximating historical outcomes. Of course, if they're shopping for ideas to improve that.....:D

-=Vel=-

Well interestingly enough, does anyone think that revolts harm anyone but the AI? Although the AI is much better at crushing revolts in 1.06 (one of the key parts of the patch IMHO) does it stop or even slow down a human?

Aside from the annoying marching of troops around the continent, or worse, crushing an island rebellion, the financial harm imposed by rebels doesn't appear to be more than a small speedbump should conquest be your bag.

I'd like to see more devastation in war; greater province population loss, greater economic destruction, province looting lasting longer and effecting the local economy more. No doubt bumping those up would also eventually be non-historic, but it might "feel" a little more like the problems of waging wars of conquest.
 

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Originally posted by James Fox
I'm afraid I have to disagree. I liked the game before, but I think changes are now being driven by machoists who merely want more and more of a challenge. But there are people who play the game to be entertained, and as one of them, I don't find endless rebellions and absurd limitations to be fun. They're just exasperating when you have goals other than difficulty. When you win because the AI is stupid, and loose because of AI cheats and limitations only placed upon the human player, the result seems to more stupid than fun.

In a recent game as Ryazan, my country almost collapsed because of war exhaustion by being dragged into alliance wars. I never fought, but my allies did well despite massive losses because of the WE cap for AI players. I ended up having to take out 4 loans and go bankrupt in order to pay off my enemies, despite the fact that no actual fighting between us ocurred.

Later, I managed to devastate the Golden Horde, depite the fact that their main army was 4 times the size of my only army. Why? Because after 6 months, the GH army sat down in Tambow and did not move for 4 years!

(This was on normal, by the way)

Before, the stupid AI could be ignored, because at least you, the player, were doing interesting things. Now, the player is crippled, so unless you live for hardships, the prime interest in the game is watching the AI do wierd and wacky things, imagining what it would be like in Real Life.

Just my 2 cents.

I find you comment not to be what actually going on in the game.

What about getting into the war to help your allies finished it in a timely fashion?, instead of sitting around waiting for WE to finish you off?? That is supposedly why you have allies - you help them they help you, you know!
If you can’t handle it (the war) they get the fuck out of it!! Sitting around taking 4 loans, all the while doing noting seams stupid to me, like just asking for collapse.
This is all about strategy, you know!

Then pointing fingers at the ‘stupid’ ai (while not doing anything yourself, according to you post) seams rather silly. If it is so stupid, then why are you displeased with the current working of the game/ai. Should be a cakewalk – right?

The game is better then every before.
It requires a bit more strategy thinking then before, thats all.
 

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I am pleased with the changes overall. However, it has been an increasing problem that WE is by far the biggest threat to every player nation. This is particularly true in MP, where it can easily be used as an intentional weapon against you. (As opposed to SP, where it just seems like the computer is using it that way.)
 

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I have not yet had a chance to play with the new patch. I imagine I will keep a copy of 1.06 on my computer until can and till I decide whether I like 1.07 or not.

However, I do have concerns about some of the direction of the changes, both those that are implemented and those that are mooted, are going.

There are a great many very good, indeed excellent players of EU2 out here. There are also a good many less talented players of the game. I fall into the latter category, for the simple reason I don't seem to find the time to play as much as others do. If I did I would doubtless be better, but why should I be punished because of that. At times that is what I feel.

Many of the changes that make it harder for players leave me uneasy. Why, I ask myself, can these people not self-limit themselves and not drive people like me out of enjoying the game as much because it becomes, for me at least, too difficult to enjoy.

Likewise I share the gripe about the historicity of the game. What is the purpose of this game? As I understand it from the marketing and so on the purpose of the game was to play in a historical period, but not to exactly recreate that period. Moves to make the latter occur more and more frequently basically leave me wondering why?

All that said I am not about to stop playing the game. It remains for me the best game I've bought since Civ2 came out. Likewise I think it is great that Johan et al are still working on EU2 to iron out the remaining wrinkles and try to address some of the other problems in the engine and so on. But I also think there is a pressure here to fix things that are not broken.

I hope that I've kept that reasonable.
 

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even if you don't like this game, you gotta at least agree that paradox does a great job. every new patch is like a little add-on. this game has been out a while and they are STILL improving it. most companies would have finish patching after 1 or 2 patches. play total war games at all? ONE patch is all you get. then you have to buy an add-on which should be a patch. w/ all the patching EU2 has had, a lot of companies would have released it as an add-on. And they don't get paid to patch.

it seems WE is less problemsome in 1.7 to me. it doesnt build up as fast, but i could be wrong. in 1.6 i would get revolts after months, not years of war, which was too much.

and i want a challenging game. i don't want the game to finish w/ me the ruler of the world by 1600. this game is one of the best ever in my opinion. anyone who doesn't like it is just a greifer, or they are straight trippin' :)
 

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What about getting into the war to help your allies finished it in a timely fashion?, instead of sitting around waiting for WE to finish you off?? That is supposedly why you have allies - you help them they help you, you know!

When you are a tiny 1-province nation with minimal cash flow, sending the only sizable army you have to help allies with much larger armies than yours, against enemies with much larger armies than yours, in an area where winter comes early and lingers late, is hardly a recipie for ending wars quickly.

If you can’t handle it (the war) they get the fuck out of it!! Sitting around taking 4 loans, all the while doing noting seams stupid to me, like just asking for collapse.

Evidently, you somehow read only half a sentence at a time. I was not doing nothing - I was putting down revolt after revolt. I wanted to avoid a government collapse, and I did not have the armies to put down revolts *and* somehow force a favorable peace against multiple alliances that I had been dragged into war with. I had to pay my enemies off, so I took the loans to get out.

I suppose it could have occurred to me that my allies would be continuously at war, but my previous alliances were generally with small, timid nations, or occurred before the current WE boost

Then pointing fingers at the ‘stupid’ ai (while not doing anything yourself, according to you post) seams rather silly. If it is so stupid, then why are you displeased with the current working of the game/ai. Should be a cakewalk – right?

I guess you missed the whole point of my post. The last patches, at least for me, have merely made the game harder without making it more interesting. This group seems to be dominated by players who merely want more of a challenge. I play to do interesting things, like reviving byzantium, colonizing the new world as kurland, or conqering the golden horde as ireland and imagining what it would be like in real life.

The most recent patches deliberatly set out to make it harder, not in an interesting way, but by kneecapping the player. You spend most of your effort overcoming the difficulties placed upon you. For some players, overcoming difficulties is the whole point, but not for me.

An AI that was more skilled would be part and parcel of the whole process of doing interesting things that are interesting to imagine in a historical sense. In real life, countries would have real limitations, rather than limitations arbitrarily defined. Could you imagine the Venetians, for example, being unable to raise an army half the size of Genoa's, for example, simply because there is some mysterious arbitrary limitation for them? That is what is being placed upon the player. For some, who only want a challenge, that's great. However, as I've said before, I have different interests.

James Fox
 

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I applaud Paradox for continuining to support and improve EUII. I'm sorry if there are some people who dislike the changes because they make it more difficult to do the things that they like most in the game. But the fact is that the changes Paradox makes can't possibly please everyone, all of the time. If you find that the latest patches are making the game too difficult for you then I suggest you play on easier settings, or go back to using an earlier patch that you found more congenial.
 

unmerged(5314)

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Originally posted by Vynd
I applaud Paradox for continuining to support and improve EUII. I'm sorry if there are some people who dislike the changes because they make it more difficult to do the things that they like most in the game. But the fact is that the changes Paradox makes can't possibly please everyone, all of the time. If you find that the latest patches are making the game too difficult for you then I suggest you play on easier settings, or go back to using an earlier patch that you found more congenial.

Throwing my two cents on the side of the moderate faction, this is exactly what I will do. I don't intend to upgrade away from 1.05 because it gives the best gameplay in my opinion and the wonderful new changes (fortress prices, exploit/bug fixes) are just not enough to counterbalance the grim restraints on GAMEPLAY and overboard AI cheating that seems to pervade the later patches. I don't play the game engine, like the radicals of this board - I play the game. I think there are more of us than of you, and we lightweights will outweigh you yet :)
 

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Originally posted by Alva
I don't play the game engine, like the radicals of this board - I play the game. I think there are more of us than of you, and we lightweights will outweigh you yet :)

I think that needs to be repeated a thousandfold. Every game engine, no matter how much "kneecapping," to steal a term from this thread, will have someone find an exploit.

I'd rather focus remain on gameplay too, not just the competative SP and MP groups.
 

unmerged(15394)

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Re: I Soooooo disagree!

Originally posted by MJames
I think 1.7 is finally the death of me and EUII. I think everyone is so fixated on making conquest difficult that it has really degraded just playing the game. I get one random event with a -3 to stability and spent the next 10 years fighting rebellions. Instead of trying to make the AI better or the historical aspect more correct, Paradox continues to try and punish non-historical play. If the game dynamics were more historic, shouldn't the game play end up more dynamic. I assume there was a reason that Genoa didn't take over most of continental Europe, yet I can in EUII. Shouldn't they be focusing on building into the game the reasons Genoa couldn't have done this feat historically instead of all these stop gap measures (BB, WE, TCs) to punish people who try? I hope for EUIII they go back to the drawing board and start again from scratch and build a better engine.

Try the April 3rd patch. I think this is a big shift to the positive for game play. Brings more strategy back to the game.
 

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For those of you who want to be able to explore and colonize the world with Bremen or Gelre, there are always cheats which allow you to get a random explorer. You could always "pretend" that Bremen got an explorer or two before Spain and Portugal and stake your claim to the new world. I don't think that it is unreasonable to use cheats if you are seeking a rather ahistorical outcome (in fact it is quite easy with most countries to achieve ahistorical outcomes without cheats if you really have your heart set on it).

As such, I have to throw my 2 cents in and come down on the side of those who enjoy the realistic qualities of the game. When I feel like radically departing from the historical path, that's when I use cheats.

Conclusion: There is something for everyone in EUII. Historical play for those who want it and cheat codes (which I personally have no shame in using) for those times when you want Bremen to discover America.
 

James Fox

First Lieutenant
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Aug 18, 2002
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(in fact it is quite easy with most countries to achieve ahistorical outcomes without cheats if you really have your heart set on it).

In fact, having the game departing from the historical path is pretty much inevitable for any game, when a person is playing or when a hands-off game is being played. EU2 is not a history lesson, but a game in which randomness is deeply embedded.

As such, I have to throw my 2 cents in and come down on the side of those who enjoy the realistic qualities of the game. When I feel like radically departing from the historical path, that's when I use cheats.[/B]

Realistic != Historical Path

James Fox