I hope this game will be as polished as..

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RhoDaZZ

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Why do you say they have limited resources? Doesn't this precisely contradict that?

No it doesn't imo (and in game development, who has infinite resources? - If we look aside from AAA titles, basically every other type of game has a strict budget). As the previous poster's post made clear, as the MM team is larger the pay is also distributed more and thus lower for each developer. Furthermore, the team does not work in a physical studio and does not have the possibility of day-to-day, hour-by-hour physical coordination of the project. Instead, it's done from the internet and thus the daily development (I imagine) would be more irregular. In addition to this, they are working on an older version of the Clausewitz engine with many new features of their own added - I (again) imagine this would be a time-consuming effort if there are quirks to work around in the old engine they are basing the game on. Finally, MM is very ambitious in terms of scope, sub-game mechanics and scenario-historicity which all has to work together and between each other without bugs in a plausible setting.
 

Zeitgeist

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Why do you say they have limited resources? Doesn't this precisely contradict that?

We do have limited resources. The vast majority of our contributors have left or disappeared by now, and turnover has been high, so that list is somewhat misleading. Currently of that list, we have 5 active contributors on the engine, 2 of whom haven't done much in about a month, and 1 of whom is looking at the possibility of some very basic threading to improve UI responsiveness/frame rate, and thus is not available for the near future. Some developers on there contributed for a month and left, yet of course they are still credited. Some did remarkably little. Some even caused more damage than they contributed.

The project overall bears more resemblance to an open source effort than not, since not a single developer is motivated by the basically nonexistent money offered. Let me put it this way-- McDonalds would be a pay upgrade for the amount of work I do, nor am I alone. Most of the team members hold down full time commitments or this would not be possible. Naturally this contributes to both attrition and an irregular work schedule. Additionally, unlike Paradox, we have a considerable ramp up time since every new developer must learn the basics of the engine, which inevitably takes some time as there's about four hundred thousand lines of code. Nor do we have the advantage of being able to coopt features, upgrades, and lessons learned from other games; CK2, Vicky 2, HoI3, and EU3: DW clearly pool some various resources and at a minimum expertise which is a time and effort-saver. We even had to code animations for instance ourselves at one point, which took a developer a couple of months. There's always a ramp up for anything new that's undertaken; for instance to improve the graphics presentation, it was necessary for two of our developers who had never really worked with DirectX before to get down and dirty and learn how to improve it.

MM was initially much more limited in scope, we expanded it greatly, which in retrospect, maybe we shouldn't have done as much, but here we are today. If we were a full time studio, on which developers actually depended on for pay, this would have collapsed long ago, but we're not. If I had a crystal ball one year ago, and knew exactly how this was going to go, I would have demanded we cut half the features, instead of doing the opposite and contributing to feature creep on nearly everything. I've had cause to regret that though, since major screw-ups or failures to deliver invariably become my team's problem.

But with all that said, here we are, nearing the finish line (or at least in the process of iterating RCs with Paradox until we have a polished enough version to release), with everything we promised, and more.
 
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James The 1st

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We do have limited resources. The vast majority of our contributors have left or disappeared by now, and turnover has been high, so that list is somewhat misleading. Currently of that list, we have 5 active contributors on the engine, 2 of whom haven't done much in about a month, and 1 of whom is looking at the possibility of some very basic threading to improve UI responsiveness/frame rate, and thus is not available for the near future. Some developers on there contributed for a month and left, yet of course they are still credited. Some did remarkably little. Some even caused more damage than they contributed.

The project overall bears more resemblance to an open source effort than not, since not a single developer is motivated by the basically nonexistent money offered. Let me put it this way-- McDonalds would be a pay upgrade for the amount of work I do, nor am I alone. Most of the team members hold down full time commitments or this would not be possible. Naturally this contributes to both attrition and an irregular work schedule. Additionally, unlike Paradox, we have a considerable ramp up time since every new developer must learn the basics of the engine, which inevitably takes some time as there's about four hundred thousand lines of code. Nor do we have the advantage of being able to coopt features, upgrades, and lessons learned from other games; CK2, Vicky 2, HoI3, and EU3: DW clearly pool some various resources and at a minimum expertise which is a time and effort-saver. We even had to code animations for instance ourselves at one point, which took a developer a couple of months. There's always a ramp up for anything new that's undertaken; for instance to improve the graphics presentation, it was necessary for two of our developers who had never really worked with DirectX before to get down and dirty and learn how to improve it.

MM was initially much more limited in scope, we expanded it greatly, which in retrospect, maybe we shouldn't have done as much, but here we are today. If we were a full time studio, on which developers actually depended on for pay, this would have collapsed long ago, but we're not. If I had a crystal ball one year ago, and knew exactly how this was going to go, I would have demanded we cut half the features, instead of doing the opposite and contributing to feature creep on nearly everything. I've had cause to regret that though, since major screw-ups or failures to deliver invariably become my team's problem.

But with all that said, here we are, nearing the finish line (or at least in the process of iterating RCs with Paradox until we have a polished enough version to release), with everything we promised, and more.
Sounds a lot like the SotS team? I sure hope not.
 

chatnoir17

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Is this situation of the developers the same as the teams of FtG, AoD or DH? I am just curious...

Anyway, it is the first external (fan-made) game using Clausewitz Engine, and there are so many difficulties as Zeitgeist said. Personally I don't mind even if MMtG doesn't appear in the perfect form. Polishing before the release is an important thing, but it is more important whether this game will be patched and tweaked constantly after the release.
 

unmerged(514)

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Yes we do have limited resources but that was the smallest of the problems this project had to face. Or, better placed, the reasons behind the high attrition of the last 6 months are the true problems this project had to face. Whether I'll disclose them or not depends on several matters, but rest assured when and if I do it, it's to provide a well documented sequence of misdeeds that will have full impact in court.

As for SotS and any comparison between our ragtag team of amateurs and their studio, I suppose no comparison can be made. First because MM team needs very few money to work (its the most significant asset we have) second because almost all of us work on this part time. Having met Kerberus guys twice, I am pretty sure of their passion, commitment and talent to make SoTS a classic game in its niche.

As for MM, it's going to have time to be released in a good shape. And that's the best news you can read!

As for Universo Virtual, it is now giving the final step to be a proper game studio, albeit very small, but in a good shape to avoid the weaknesses found during the MM development. Stay tuned for more news. :)

As for pity, I don't pity myself. If anything and considering all the cards, I can only praise my luck. In fact, the curse of Magna Mundi as a project is the bless of Universo Virtual as a studio. But I pity dysfunctional relations for instance. I pity those who choose a path of fear before attempting a path of trust. I pity a lack of directness specially as that forces me to be opaque to the extreme. I make a point for never delivering the same that is delivered to me. I always attempt very hard to give much more. Which can be good news or bad news for the receiver, for me and for anyone involved.

Bottom line is: Universo Virtual and Team Magna Mundi are committed to deliver and support a great product for years to come and that is what you all are going to experience.
 
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th3freakie

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Yes we do have limited resources but that was the smallest of the problems this project had to face. Or, better placed, the reasons behind the high attrition of the last 6 months are the true problems this project had to face. Whether I'll disclose them or not depends on several matters, but rest assured when and if I do it, it's to provide a well documented sequence of misdeeds that will have full impact in court.

"Melhor colocado" doesn't translate well mate :D
 

unc15

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In my enormously subjective opinion, even if it isn't as polished, the underlying philosophy of MM will make it x1000 better than EU3 or any other similar game.
 

Clophiroth

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In my enormously subjective opinion, even if it isn't as polished, the underlying philosophy of MM will make it x1000 better than EU3 or any other similar game.

Well, x1000 better is too much... Maybe x999 better? :p
 

ewphoenix123

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Yes we do have limited resources but that was the smallest of the problems this project had to face. Or, better placed, the reasons behind the high attrition of the last 6 months are the true problems this project had to face. Whether I'll disclose them or not depends on several matters, but rest assured when and if I do it, it's to provide a well documented sequence of misdeeds that will have full impact in court.

Would be interesting to switch notes I guess. :)

I for my part recognise a lot of our history in your reply to the limited ressources question, but I think we were at least a bit better prepared for the fluctuations.
A little little bit, I can't count the amount of sideprojects I had to pick up and finish because some contributor disapeared.

But overall we were lucky enough to maintain a stable and active core of reliable people.

I think the one big difference between or teams is Martin as producer, he's the one who made the tough calls to limit new features on release to a managable amount, and even then it was brutal to make the (second ^^) deadline, many other projects couldn't do that.

The project overall bears more resemblance to an open source effort than not, since not a single developer is motivated by the basically nonexistent money offered. Let me put it this way-- McDonalds would be a pay upgrade for the amount of work I do, nor am I alone.
If we were a full time studio, on which developers actually depended on for pay, this would have collapsed long ago, but we're not. took a developer a couple of months. There's always a ramp up for anything new that's undertaken; for instance to improve the graphics presentation, it was necessary for two of our developers who had never really worked with DirectX before to get down and dirty and learn how to improve it.

Amen to that. People should never forget that this projects are primarily a work of Love, undertaken by people who want to create the perfect toy for themselves and the rest of the community, the pace of development maybe slower but it will go on because it is more of a favorite hobby then a job. At least once you are past release and are nolonger pulling 18 hour shifts to make a deadline. *g*

I just wanted to say, hang in there guys. A lot of people wait eagerly for this game and it will be worth all the drama and pain in the end.
 

unmerged(514)

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Would be interesting to switch notes I guess. :)

I would say on this side the notes would serve as a very interesting plot for a Hollywood movie, involving the most strange starting circumstances, passion, talent, romance, betrayal and even crime.

I for my part recognise a lot of our history in your reply to the limited ressources question, but I think we were at least a bit better prepared for the fluctuations.

You are answering the narrower perspective of Zeitgeist comment. As I told, resources were not a problem until the last six months. And the reasons for their departure, lack of interest, etc are pretty much singled out and were done on purpose, even if the attrition was just a side effect of the real objective. Out of this Darkest Hour of Magna Mundi, did you know that 8 months into the project we had to turn it into something 3 times bigger and not a single developer was adding features for that to happen?

But overall we were lucky enough to maintain a stable and active core of reliable people.

Exactly as in Magna Mundi. There were 8 to 10 very reliable and talented people across development. Otherwise something of this scope - and what scope it is! - would not be possible.

I think the one big difference between or teams is Martin as producer, he's the one who made the tough calls to limit new features on release to a managable amount, and even then it was brutal to make the (second ^^) deadline, many other projects couldn't do that.

I made the tough calls and I am proud of them. I challenge anyone to have made better calls given the overall picture of the project. The only call that was risky - but given the opportunity, impossible to pass - was the inclusion of the new renderer. But understand that attrition by itself was not a problem. The problem were the actions that as a secondary effect caused that attrition.


Amen to that. People should never forget that this projects are primarily a work of Love, undertaken by people who want to create the perfect toy for themselves and the rest of the community, the pace of development maybe slower but it will go on because it is more of a favorite hobby then a job. At least once you are past release and are nolonger pulling 18 hour shifts to make a deadline. *g*

I am going to tell you it was never my intention to create the perfect anything, but always saw this as a full featured product. For a work of love I could have presented already MM the mod.

Even if most of the team worked on this part time and with no payment, make no mistakes: I make a point of being judged for the results through the lenses of a professional product. And, as any leader worth of his salt, if its a failure, I will answer for it alone. If its a success, everybody is going to have a share of the pie.

I just wanted to say, hang in there guys. A lot of people wait eagerly for this game and it will be worth all the drama and pain in the end.

Yes, everybody will have its share of the success pie. ;)
 

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If the developers overreach, the game will punish them... ;)


But hey, once the war is won and all the rebels gone, you will sit upon the greatest empire the world has ever seen. Big MM blob.
 

th3freakie

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Wow that's a strange topic. And a strange way to work Oo. I had in my mind something like Ubik and the others from MMtM's team joining the pofessional devs from the studio wich created EU3 in their big headquarters hidden somewhere undeground in stockholm, certainly not working by themselves on the internet with only the engine provided to them. I hope (and in fact i know) that the game will be a big success for you guys, you obviously deserve it.
 

unmerged(514)

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n0xr said:
If the developers overreach, the game will punish them...

True! But other than smaller average scores, no great punishment. The prairies ahead are green. :)


And a strange way to work Oo.

Not to be attempted by the faint of heart and even the strongest hearts should only take a single portion! :)
 
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