I hope the game will distinguish between heavy infantry

[Durnilhas]

This only happened after the Marian reforms.

Edit: Beaten. <_<

Mmmmh maybe the thread change its subject since my answer!? I don't understand why you choose to argue about an historical event over the gameplay feature this thread is about.

I gave an example to explain how some features and distinction can be implemented and explained.

The point was : only roman did this. It was a trait. Maybe tribe will have less manpower from some pop because it is how they work? Maybe another culture or gov can have manpower from slave? Maybe it is only after a tech that you will be able?

 

[Denkt]

Pretty sure that after the marian reforms the Soldiers had to pay for their Equipment on their salary (over several years) and thus also became the owner of their Equipments.

Before the Soldiers had to already own their Equipments Before they could even join which was an big obstacle because poor people could not join the army.

The marian army was also a professional army of career Soldiers so the quality was probably significant higher than Before the reforms.

However the roman army was pretty small (Maybe 2% of their total population) while other societies could probably field a larger % of their population which was Maybe why the roman could have so good Equipment compared to pretty much everyone else.

 

[wingren013]

However the roman army was pretty small (Maybe 2% of their total population) while other societies could probably field a larger % of their population which was Maybe why the roman could have so good Equipment compared to pretty much everyone else.

2% mobilization is about normal for a standing army outside of crisis time. I think thats what the USA is at iirc.

 

[Denkt]

2% mobilization is about normal for a standing army outside of crisis time. I think thats what the USA is at iirc.

Rome however was able to keep a 2% standing army during pre industrial time with many units being comparable to special forces today. Rome could basically pick out the best Soldiers with the best Equipment which was a reason for their success.

 

[wingren013]

with many units being comparable to special forces today.

I hoghly doubt that. Todays average rifleman is equivalent to an elite soldier of the ancient world just in terms of training and cost spent equipping them.

 

[Denkt]

I hoghly doubt that. Todays average rifleman is equivalent to an elite soldier of the ancient world just in terms of training and cost spent equipping them.

Ancient World had people who did not do much but train for war since birth. Rome legions was pretty famous for their training regime which ment to march several kilometers and when build a fort and do something like that every day.

I doubt that modern armies have better training than the better units of the roman army at its peak. Ancient societies had very different training routines than modern armies due to how wars was waged at that time.

Cost, you have to consider that Rome was a preindustrial society and the Equipment they had at the time was about as good as you could get at the time.

Roman legionary after marian reforms would is probably comparable to the average professional Soldier, special force unit for Rome would be different Auxilia units who specialised in stuff Roman legionaries did not.

Elite really just mean social status such as praetorian guard however these units tend to be recruit from Soldiers that performed very well on the battlefield, something like guard units in modern sense.

 

[Scutatus]

Ancient World had people who did not do much but train for war since birth. Rome legions was pretty famous for their training regime which ment to march several kilometers and when build a fort and do something like that every day.

I doubt that modern armies have better training than the better units of the roman army at its peak. Ancient societies had very different training routines than modern armies due to how wars was waged at that time.

Cost, you have to consider that Rome was a preindustrial society and the Equipment they had at the time was about as good as you could get at the time.

Roman legionary after marian reforms would is probably comparable to the average professional Soldier, special force unit for Rome would be different Auxilia units who specialised in stuff Roman legionaries did not.

Elite really just mean social status such as praetorian guard however these units tend to be recruit from Soldiers that performed very well on the battlefield, something like guard units in modern sense.

It is important to keep context. In the period 300 BC - 100 BC, two thirds of the time frame of this game, Mid Republican Polybian militia legions were the order of the day. These Legions, despite Manipular tactics, training and drill, were often poorly led and rarely very experienced; more often than not they went to war with just boot camp training behind them. Contrary to the common image of them, the legions were defeated as often as they were victorious. Rome was only ultimately triumphant in it's conflicts because it always had another legion to send - it won through attrition, not because the legions were some kind of "elite". They usually weren't. Not at that time anyway.

 

[Denkt]

It is important to keep context. In the period 300 BC - 100 BC, two thirds of the time frame of this game, Mid Republican Polybian militia legions were the order of the day. These Legions, despite Manipular tactics, training and drill, were often poorly led and rarely very experienced; more often than not they went to war with just boot camp training behind them. Contrary to the common image of them, the legions were defeated as often as they were victorious. Rome was only ultimately triumphant in it's conflicts because it always had another legion to send - it won through attrition, not because the legions were some kind of "elite". They usually weren't. Not at that time anyway.

The same can largely be said about modern armies as well. Rome was pretty large so the quality of their legions and Auxilia may have varied alot (but that is the case of modern armies as well). Post marian reforms legionaries was professional Soldiers. Elite don't mean good Soldiers but is actually mean Soldiers of high status, rather than skill. Roman legions post marian reforms was well trained professional Soldiers, elite units is such as the praetorian guard.

Their enemies was quite decent as well.

Modern armies are not really better than ancient romans in terms of quality of the Soldiers.

War and attrition is something that have been true for as long as war existed, the side who no longer is capable of waging war or just give up first lose. Being able to have the extra legion to spare is still important even today, although our legion may be more like military hardware than people.

 

[Scutatus]

The same can largely be said about modern armies as well. Rome was pretty large so the quality of their legions and Auxilia may have varied alot (but that is the case of modern armies as well). Post marian reforms legionaries was professional Soldiers. Elite don't mean good Soldiers but is actually mean Soldiers of high status, rather than skill. Roman legions post marian reforms was well trained professional Soldiers, elite units is such as the praetorian guard.

Their enemies was quite decent as well.

Modern armies are not really better than ancient romans in terms of quality of the Soldiers.

War and attrition is something that have been true for as long as war existed, the side who no longer is capable of waging war or just give up first lose. Being able to have the extra legion to spare is still important even today, although our legion may be more like military hardware than people.

I keep seeing the argument for post Marian professional legions. Which is only a third of the time frame in this game. I am not contesting the abilities of the Legions of the 1st Century BC. I am attempting to point out that those aren't the legions that would be in use for the bulk of the timeframe of the game.

 

[Denkt]

I keep seeing the argument for post Marian professional legions. Which is only a third of the time frame in this game. I am not contesting the abilities of the Legions of the 1st Century BC. I am attempting to point out that those aren't the legions that would be in use for the bulk of the timeframe of the game.

Polybian legions could be compared to a conscript army in terms of quality with some differences such as need to purchase their own Equipment.

 

[icedt729]

Modern armies are not really better than ancient romans in terms of quality of the Soldiers.

This is just factually untrue. For one, modern people are significantly larger and healthier than classical Romans were, confirmed by archaeology. For another, modern soldiers tend to be literate and numerate at a bare minimum and are often very skilled and well-educated. A 5'3" illiterate Latin farmer would have been considered a perfectly good recruit in classical times but would be unacceptable to a modern military in even a moderately-developed country.

 

[Tim O]

I keep seeing the argument for post Marian professional legions. Which is only a third of the time frame in this game. I am not contesting the abilities of the Legions of the 1st Century BC. I am attempting to point out that those aren't the legions that would be in use for the bulk of the timeframe of the game.

The player will likely have the ability to make that reform earlier.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

The player will likely have the ability to make that reform earlier.

Quite possible, but I'd still hope they look at Polybian Legions as inspiration first and Marian ones second.

I also hope the Marian reforms aren't a no brainer and there is option to keep the Polybian ones to the end, e.g by restricting the expansion of slave-worked latifundia and keeping healthy population of sufficiently wealthy smallholders. Should hopefully limit the "march on Rome" tendency of certain generals by keeping the common soldiery more loyal to the state and it's institutions.

 

[Denkt]

From what I understand, marian reforms is going to be a tradition or something similar which Rome at some Point can chose to pick. Overall it sound like something similar to national ideas but I could be wrong about that.

This is just factually untrue. For one, modern people are significantly larger and healthier than classical Romans were, confirmed by archaeology. For another, modern soldiers tend to be literate and numerate at a bare minimum and are often very skilled and well-educated. A 5'3" illiterate Latin farmer would have been considered a perfectly good recruit in classical times but would be unacceptable to a modern military in even a moderately-developed country.

Education (in our sense) is much more common nowdays than it was in Roman times (but older times did have education in a way such as Learning a specific Craft). Centurions and other people in charge of the roman army needed to know how to write and read, it was just not considered to be needed for legionaries to be able to read and would actually being able to read make the legionaries into better Soldiers?

Size, again I don't really see the Point. The roman army did have requirements and the Soldiers had to keep up in the training. I don't see how these things would actually make modern Soldiers better than ancient ones.

 

[Durnilhas]

The player will likely have the ability to make that reform earlier.

What are your sources? The official thread about "what we know" including rumors don't mention that.

 

[Denkt]

What are your sources? The official thread about "what we know" including rumors don't mention that.

Pretty sure I read about marian reforms being a tradition on reddit. Rome will also be able to build roads with their legions which is a national tradition.

 

[Tim O]

What are your sources? The official thread about "what we know" including rumors don't mention that.

No sources, but in EU4 and Vicky 2 you are almost always able to pull off historical reforms earlier if you are a competent player, some time much earlier.

 

[Durnilhas]

I did not read that. And no official sources said it. Furthermore the reform i way after end date. But wait and see maybe it will happen

 

[Denkt]

I did not read that. And no official sources said it. Furthermore the reform i way after end date. But wait and see maybe it will happen

The reform is inside the game timeframe.

 

[sr999]

I just hope this game doesnt fall into the trap of Rome has access to all the best units and other nations are forced to use inferior units.

The Roman legionary and legion formation was super strong, but the pike and phalanx units with calvary support of Greece/successor states as well as carthage were extremely strong in their own right. Both formations had advantages and disadvantages. All nations should be alowed to advance and evolve their militaries equally.

Rome wasnt the only nation that learned from its enemies and adapited its military. The sucessor states were in the process of reforming their milities and tactics to better combat non-eastern threats (Rome). Rome just got to them before they could finish.

If PDS somehow can simulate disasters despite the odds, such as Cannae and especially the extraordinary Carrhae, as well as the usual inevitable victories against the odds, I'll be well satisfied... Adrianople would be great too if it goes as late as the Ostrogoths.