I hope the game will distinguish between heavy infantry

[Martynios]

Possibly Johan already has ideas for this, but I think it would be really bad if all heavy infantry were to be more or less tactically identical to each other. There were drastic differences between e.g. Hellenistic phalanxes, Greek/Carthaginian spearmen, Roman-style swordsmen and celtic warriors. These were much more distinct from each other than, say, light cavalry and horse archers.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Possibly Johan already has ideas for this, but I think it would be really bad if all heavy infantry were to be more or less tactically identical to each other. There were drastic differences between e.g. Hellenistic phalanxes, Greek/Carthaginian spearmen, Roman-style swordsmen and celtic warriors. These were much more distinct from each other than, say, light cavalry and horse archers.

It could be done along the lines of EU4 having several different unit types available at a given tech level.

It could be done with research options that unlock different bonus types, with certain units being locked behind particular options (so, sure you could research both Phalanxes and Legionaries, but neither would be as effective as if you'd just devoted that research to one path).

It could be that the units are culture locked, so Latinate cultures go with Legions, Greek with Hoplites, and so on.

There's s lot of possibilities.

But....

What should the distinctions be? How should they all differ mechanically?

 

[Martynios]

It could be that the units are culture locked, so Latinate cultures go with Legions, Greek with Hoplites, and so on.

This doesn't seem unlikely.

What should the distinctions be? How should they all differ mechanically?

Well, as none of us know how the combat will actually work, I can't really say anything mechanically. What I'd like to see is things like for example phalanxes being strong on flat terrain but being easily outmaneuvered.

 

[tradetem]

Didn't the annoucenement state that different cultures will have different units?

Military Traditions: Each culture has a unique way of waging war. Romans and Celts have different options available to them. Unlock unique bonuses, abilities and units.

This sounds like different cultures will have varied units even in categories [different heavy infantry, etc]

 

[fabius]

Possibly Johan already has ideas for this, but I think it would be really bad if all heavy infantry were to be more or less tactically identical to each other. There were drastic differences between e.g. Hellenistic phalanxes, Greek/Carthaginian spearmen, Roman-style swordsmen and celtic warriors. These were much more distinct from each other than, say, light cavalry and horse archers.

Absolutely ! One of my greatest hopes is that units and warfare is more fleshed out than EU Rome.
The info so far suggest it may be. I'd definitely like to see some difference between early and post reforms Roman heavy infantry; and phalanxes etc

 

[Kliwarrior]

If they implement "tactic" , different technology/military bonuses can model this.
I mean, if you have the "phalanx" enabled you can use tactic like "linear / oblique" formation or "keep the centre and encircle with cavalry on the flanks".

But phalanx probably has heavy malus on mixed terrain respect to manipular formation (see Cynoscephale) and with this you can use "variabile front" tactic.

 

[fabius]

If they implement "tactic" , different technology/military bonuses can model this.
I mean, if you have the "phalanx" enabled you can use tactic like "linear / oblique" formation or "keep the centre and encircle with cavalry on the flanks".

But phalanx probably has heavy malus on mixed terrain respect to manipular formation (see Cynoscephale) and with this you can use "variabile front" tactic.

Yeah, there's lots of possibilities to mix it up and add the flavour and impactful mechanics.

 

[Cpt. Fabri]

In the screens that we've seen so far we can actually see different types of cohorts. For example, different gladius/shield units and spear/shield infantry. You can see it aswell on the cavalry what I assume is medium jack of all trades and also shock cavalry units.

Not only that but also different icons highlighted on the UI which might be different tactics? One for example is what it seems a phalanx formation, while other could be a Cantabrian Circle. So who knows, maybe the approach they are taking is that you set up different behaviors for your individual cohor types with it's cons/pros depending of the situation. And then classical Paradox style your traditions/terrain/rng/equipment/leader/etc makes the rest.

 

[LordTempest]

Obviously the devs should only focus on proper and historically authentic Roman units, like flaming pigs.

 

[Denkt]

Military Traditions: Each culture has a unique way of waging war. Romans and Celts have different options available to them. Unlock unique bonuses, abilities and units.

 

[Martynios]

In the screens that we've seen so far we can actually see different types of cohorts. For example, different gladius/shield units and spear/shield infantry. You can see it aswell on the cavalry what I assume is medium jack of all trades and also shock cavalry units.

Nope, the only distinction made is heavy/light/archer, and then there are the slightly redundant special units elephants, chariots and camels.

 

[Tim O]

Nope, the only distinction made is heavy/light/archer, and then there are the slightly redundant special units elephants, chariots and camels.

I saw that graphic. I wonder if it's complete. Surely there will be a seige unit, but one was not shown.

 

[Martynios]

I saw that graphic. I wonder if it's complete. Surely there will be a seige unit, but one was not shown.

I don't think a siege unit would make much sense. Most siege equipment historically was just made on the spot, and the exceptions, like the artillery every Roman legion had, would be better represented as some sort of army attachment.

I also hope cannons in EU5 will be an attachment and not a real unit, but that's off-topic.

 

[Marinakis]

I just hope this game doesnt fall into the trap of Rome has access to all the best units and other nations are forced to use inferior units.

The Roman legionary and legion formation was super strong, but the pike and phalanx units with calvary support of Greece/successor states as well as carthage were extremely strong in their own right. Both formations had advantages and disadvantages. All nations should be alowed to advance and evolve their militaries equally.

Rome wasnt the only nation that learned from its enemies and adapited its military. The sucessor states were in the process of reforming their milities and tactics to better combat non-eastern threats (Rome). Rome just got to them before they could finish.

 

[Martynios]

I just hope this game doesnt fall into the trap of Rome has access to all the best units and other nations are forced to use inferior units.

The Roman legionary and legion formation was super strong, but the pike and phalanx units with calvary support of Greece/successor states as well as carthage were extremely strong in their own right. Both formations had advantages and disadvantages. All nations should be alowed to advance and evolve their militaries equally.

Rome wasnt the only nation that learned from its enemies and adapited its military. The sucessor states were in the process of reforming their milities and tactics to better combat non-eastern threats (Rome). Rome just got to them before they could finish.

The Seleucid empire actually formed units of roman-style swordsmen (thorakitai), but they lost anyway.

 

[fabius]

I just hope this game doesnt fall into the trap of Rome has access to all the best units and other nations are forced to use inferior units.

The Roman legionary and legion formation was super strong, but the pike and phalanx units with calvary support of Greece/successor states as well as carthage were extremely strong in their own right. Both formations had advantages and disadvantages. All nations should be alowed to advance and evolve their militaries equally.

Rome wasnt the only nation that learned from its enemies and adapited its military. The sucessor states were in the process of reforming their milities and tactics to better combat non-eastern threats (Rome). Rome just got to them before they could finish.

My reading of history is that some Roman legions/armies performed terribly. Often attributed to lack of discipline and training.
The ones that performed well often attributed it partly due to their generals being very keen on discipline and emphasising training well before the battle.

Thus ideal material for EU-ish style training mechanic.

 

[Denkt]

My reading of history is that some Roman legions/armies performed terribly. Often attributed to lack of discipline and training.
The ones that performed well often attributed it partly due to their generals being very keen on discipline and emphasising training well before the battle.

Thus ideal material for EU-ish style training mechanic.

It look like the game do have training or something like that.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

It look like the game do have training or something like that.

General traits that give +discipline or morale?
Maybe green/trained/elite starus from experience, and units can lose experience if posted to "soft" areas with an indifferent legate?

 

[fabius]

It look like the game do have training or something like that.

Which army icon do you think may suggest that ?

 

[Salaman Der]

The Seleucid empire actually formed units of roman-style swordsmen (thorakitai), but they lost anyway.

at a certain point (around I century BC) most of the major powers in the area began using "legionary-like" troops, exactly like in the III century most of them tried to use "phalanx" or interestingly imitations and before them, hoplite or hoplite-likes formations...
It's all a matter of power. If a state wins battles means its troops have an edge, so other states are more keen to copy said troops.
For example in the WW2, after the German breakthrough in France, all the major powers began producing armored tanks. After Pearl Harbour / Midway, the same happened for Aircraft Carriers.