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loup99

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As said: The problem is performance. They simple COULDN'T put in CHina as provinces because that would destroy the performance of the game enormously.
Not sure on this one-sided argument, honestly. China would not be as many provinces as Rajas of India, as it has incorrectly been stated, and remember that large parts of what constitutes China today and is in their sphere of influence is already present on the map. Furthermore, the developers themselves seemed to think performance was something that could be addressed, while keeping the existant system requirements. The unreasonable thing would however be to maintain a bunch of different optional map combinations, that would have a negative impact on performance when it can easily be done through mods instead.
 

Thure

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No it's not.

Whoever disagreed with me:
Johan DID said they make as much expansions as the people will buy. Yes they said this or the next would be the last but they revoked their statement. This will not be the last DLC.
 

King Anund

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Indeed, though what a bureaucratic government type would entail in practice is an open question.
I don't know if there will be a 'bureaucratic' goverment, but at least there is a new government type (the chinese have another color in the cloth of their portrait tier).
 

xXConquerorXx

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Not sure on this one-sided argument, honestly. China would not be as many provinces as Rajas of India, as it has incorrectly been stated, and remember that large parts of what constitutes China today and is in their sphere of influence is already present on the map. Furthermore, the developers themselves seemed to think performance was something that could be addressed, while keeping the existant system requirements. The unreasonable thing would however be to maintain a bunch of different optional map combinations, that would have a negative impact on performance when it can easily be done through mods instead.

And don't forget there are more ways of representing a higher population count than simply more provinces, for example, more and better developed holdings could do it.
 

icedt729

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Honestly I think the biggest issue with implementing China on the map isn't performance, it's actually modelling the country and its neighbors in a reasonable way. Vanilla CK2 mechanics don't fit Tang or Song or Ming China and wouldn't be able to produce most of the important events of the era.
 

Thure

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Honestly I think the biggest issue with implementing China on the map isn't performance, it's actually modelling the country and its neighbors in a reasonable way. Vanilla CK2 mechanics don't fit Tang or Song or Ming China and wouldn't be able to produce most of the important events of the era.

Features and mechanics are possible too be added. Bureaucratic government would be possible to implent. But the devs clairly said that performance was their biggest issue with the idea, because they couldn't add performance that easily. You can create features but creating better performance is way more difficult.
 

icedt729

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Features and mechanics are possible too be added. Bureaucratic government would be possible to implent. But the devs clairly said that performance was their biggest issue with the idea, because they couldn't add performance that easily. You can create features but creating better performance is way more difficult.
I'm sure the devs were most concerned about the performance hit, but even if performance were a non-issue the game as it stands is just not a great fit for China. Many of the things they could do to make China work better (reworks for imperial government and retinues, for example) would nullify or drastically change previous DLC content, which is something the devs have said they're unwilling to do.

The general pattern has been that the game's core mechanics are a good fit for Western Europe, but get less and less appropriate the further you get from France and Germany. Religion? Built around holy wars, inquisitions, and hierarchical churches. Politics? Built around regional military aristocracies with weak courts and nonexistent bureaucracies. Warfare? Seasonal levies and only small, half-implemented standing armies. Laws? Mostly just the extent to which local power-holders are or aren't obligated to their lieges. Even holdings are modeled on a Latin Europe where nobles, burgers and clergy were important, legally-distinct types of landholder. No element of that setup works for China. So that's what I mean when I say that it would take a really extensive effort to make deep changes to core gameplay elements in order to implement China well. If it got even an RoI India-style implementation it would be almost impossible to model important events and people of the time because the basic way society operated was too different.
 

Lord_P

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I would be happy with just "Imperial" in the government map mode for realms like the Byzantines and Chinese.
With a beautiful purple (similar to the colour of ERE on Macs) as its colour. The government type's icon should be a grand crown on a background of purple.

I know these are absolutely insignificant suggestions.
 

elvain

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They might add in a new government type for China, but it honestly seems like a lot of work when they're only adding in one, typically minor, physical realm to the game. Especially when this"Western Protectorate" (or whatever it's called) isn't the actually run by the Emperor, just one of his agents.

So, they could probably say that the Protectorate's relationship with the Emperor isn't really feudal, but the Protectorate itself functions basically like a feudal realm-- in the event that they didn't want to go through the trouble of coming up with a whole new government type. My money is on them not taking the trouble.
There are various ways how the Western Protectorate can be handled.

After all, apart from the possible interactions and the new governments, this is the biggest and most interesting question about the upcomming DLC for me.

As suggested somewhere else, the bureaucratic system could function numerous ways without having to be so performance heavy. I really don't know the chinese system, but there is plenty of inspiration in the Byzantine or islamic world, which had bureaucratic systems too, with prominent families taking offices, powerfull slaves or eunuchs, standing or slave armies often more faithfull to their general than their ruler.
All you need to do is to give those characters a platform on which they could function. In islamic world it might be tribalism, in Byzantine world dynastic palaces, slaves could work around slave market and mercenary/standing army companies, etc.

Not sure how you'd strike back in a meaningful way if the provinces for the main Empire aren't on the map. Nowhere to march any armies.

Sure, you can take back the provinces that China invades, but that sounds pretty darn unsatisfying.

How else do you figure you could strike the main Empire? Maybe they'll throw in a few events. Even if they have you a real big one like assassinating the Emperor, you won't really get to see the fallout. The best I can see happening is an event that says "Oh boy, you got them good... You should see it. Chaos. Pain. They're real sorry they messed with you. Honest."
There are many possibilities. Some kind of simulated war window, a separate schematic minimap, where one would be able to take some land? Or it could be war-tied decisions where you can pick for instance - go and take their land which means entering a battle on their (abstract) territory and taking their capital with high attrition costs and risk of total anihilation unless you send a doomstack?
Who knows, we know so very little..
 

CannotresistDLC

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There are many possibilities. Some kind of simulated war window, a separate schematic minimap, where one would be able to take some land? Or it could be war-tied decisions where you can pick for instance - go and take their land which means entering a battle on their (abstract) territory and taking their capital with high attrition costs and risk of total anihilation unless you send a doomstack?
Who knows, we know so very little..

It could be as simple as an event that, when you kick the snot out of on-map forces (Protectorate or event troops), threatens the Mandate and destabilizes the empire - forcing the Son of Heaven to focus on home instead of interfering on-map for a while. Or even plunges China into civil war and replaces the Emperor's portrait with a big "?" for a number of years.
 

huyderman

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Adding China as an off-map entity, while perhaps not the most satisfying, is a good compromise for dealing with the far-east in CK2. Handling China properly, both in terms of performance and mechanics, is probably better suited for CK3. Heck, it might even be one of the "killer features" that would justify a CK3, which they feel couldn't be properly implemented in the current game.

I think it's a good compromise. They're fleshing out the region, and hopefully lessening the feeling of being on "the edge of the map". It's also an interesting mechanic for off-map entities that could be expanded upon, both in vanilla and in mods. I'm interested to see what they do with it.
 

Asiak

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Whoever disagreed with me:
Johan DID said they make as much expansions as the people will buy. Yes they said this or the next would be the last but they revoked their statement. This will not be the last DLC.

I remember when and where Johan said that and it is true that he said it.

Beyond that every mention of future DLCs has had a hint, a glimmer perhaps of hope of more DLCs really an uncertainty really.

But where and in what language was there a hard revocation of that previous statement?