I gotta say, I really enjoy what paradox is doing for this next DLC.

[Maelstrom_64]

Not sure how you'd strike back in a meaningful way if the provinces for the main Empire aren't on the map. Nowhere to march any armies.

Sure, you can take back the provinces that China invades, but that sounds pretty darn unsatisfying.

How else do you figure you could strike the main Empire? Maybe they'll throw in a few events. Even if they have you a real big one like assassinating the Emperor, you won't really get to see the fallout. The best I can see happening is an event that says "Oh boy, you got them good... You should see it. Chaos. Pain. They're real sorry they messed with you. Honest."

This is precisely the problem with this half-baked approach to China: what we're basically getting is "Sunrise Invasion" with a handful of diplomatic flirtations to stem the tide. At least when Sunset Invasion came out, it made sense that you wouldn't be able to strike back, as the Aztec homeland was across the Atlantic; but China is so darn close!!!
Sadly, it looks like Paradox is putting on its pointy hat, grabbing its staff, and telling us that we shall not pass.

But there could still be hope...

Maybe we'll get lucky and some devs will go rogue after support for CK2 formally ends? They could start a Patreon account and develop a complete China expansion; heck, they could call the project "Manifest Destiny" and take us all the way to the Pacific! I would help fund that--just like I would've bought this expansion, had it been what we were actually hoping for.

If the East is truly closed to us for all time, then I would share with you the sentiments of a great leader of antiquity:
"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept. For there were no more worlds to conquer..."

 

[Thure]

Not sure how you'd strike back in a meaningful way if the provinces for the main Empire aren't on the map. Nowhere to march any armies.

Sure, you can take back the provinces that China invades, but that sounds pretty darn unsatisfying.

How else do you figure you could strike the main Empire? Maybe they'll throw in a few events. Even if they have you a real big one like assassinating the Emperor, you won't really get to see the fallout. The best I can see happening is an event that says "Oh boy, you got them good... You should see it. Chaos. Pain. They're real sorry they messed with you. Honest."

Because they Mongols did it during the game timeline? Or do you thing the devs will completelly ignore the Yuan dynasty which was just created because the Mongols invaded China?
Of course it will not happen in a normal war. But somehow it will surely be represented.

This is precisely the problem with this half-baked approach to China: what we're basically getting is "Sunrise Invasion" with a handful of diplomatic flirtations to stem the tide. At least when Sunset Invasion came out, it made sense that you wouldn't be able to strike back, as the Aztec homeland was across the Atlantic; but China is so darn close!!!
Sadly, it looks like Paradox is putting on its pointy hat, grabbing its staff, and telling us that we shall not pass.

But there could still be hope...

Maybe we'll get lucky and some devs will go rogue after support for CK2 formally ends? They could start a Patreon account and develop a complete China expansion; heck, they could call the project "Manifest Destiny" and take us all the way to the Pacific! I would help fund that--just like I would've bought this expansion, had it been what we were actually hoping for.

If the East is truly closed to us for all time, then I would share with you the sentiments of a great leader of antiquity:
"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept. For there were no more worlds to conquer..."

As said: The problem is performance. They simple COULDN'T put in CHina as provinces because that would destroy the performance of the game enormously.

 

[riadach]

Bureaucracy wouldn't have to exclude dynasties. You could have a situation where all titles are only distributed by appointment and 10 or so families had a family palace. Each of the families could only be placated if their members hold high positions (as strategoii or as advisors). Angering all of them could precipitate a palace coup while angering half of them could start a civil war.

 

[Maelstrom_64]

Because they Mongols did it during the game timeline? Or do you thing the devs will completelly ignore the Yuan dynasty which was just created because the Mongols invaded China?
Of course it will not happen in a normal war. But somehow it will surely be represented.


As said: The problem is performance. They simple COULDN'T put in CHina as provinces because that would destroy the performance of the game enormously.

Because they Mongols did it during the game timeline? Or do you thing the devs will completelly ignore the Yuan dynasty which was just created because the Mongols invaded China?
Of course it will not happen in a normal war. But somehow it will surely be represented.


As said: The problem is performance. They simple COULDN'T put in CHina as provinces because that would destroy the performance of the game enormously.

Would it destroy performance on modern computer configurations or only on ones with the outdated system requirements from when the game launched over 5 years ago?
The recommended specs on Steam are a 2.4GHz Pentium IV processor, 2GB RAM, and a GeForce 8800 or Radeon X1900, which were state of the art back in the mid-2000's or something.
Now I'm not the kind of jerk to ask people to upgrade their computers every 2 years or anything, but c'mon...if a China expansion would run fine on a rig with modern base specs, then why not do it the right way and go for it? It's not like you're forcing all users into it, as it's an optional expansion. (If the game client becomes completely unstable and would be jacked up across any platform, then that's another matter...)
Please don't mistake my questions here as me being hostile or asserting that I know all the ins and outs of development (I certainly don't). It just seems to me that if it's simply a question of hardware limitations, I'd wager that most of us would be understanding about demanding a little hardware bump in order to get the full experience that we were looking for.

 

[Thure]

Would it destroy performance on modern computer configurations or only on ones with the outdated system requirements from when the game launched over 5 years ago?
The recommended specs on Steam are a 2.4GHz Pentium IV processor, 2GB RAM, and a GeForce 8800 or Radeon X1900, which were state of the art back in the mid-2000's or something.
Now I'm not the kind of jerk to ask people to upgrade their computers every 2 years or anything, but c'mon...if a China expansion would run fine on a rig with modern base specs, then why not do it the right way and go for it? It's not like you're forcing all users into it, as it's an optional expansion. (If the game client becomes completely unstable and would be jacked up across any platform, then that's another matter...)
Please don't mistake my questions here as me being hostile or asserting that I know all the ins and outs of development (I certainly don't). It just seems to me that if it's simply a question of hardware limitations, I'd wager that most of us would be understanding about demanding a little hardware bump in order to get the full experience that we were looking for.

'Sorry guys you don't get the new patch because your computer, which was completelly fine to run CK2 is outdated. Buy a new system'. Yes that would be a yerk move. You don't rise System requierements after you sell your product.

 

[Andrelvis]

Would it destroy performance on modern computer configurations or only on ones with the outdated system requirements from when the game launched over 5 years ago?
The recommended specs on Steam are a 2.4GHz Pentium IV processor, 2GB RAM, and a GeForce 8800 or Radeon X1900, which were state of the art back in the mid-2000's or something.
Now I'm not the kind of jerk to ask people to upgrade their computers every 2 years or anything, but c'mon...if a China expansion would run fine on a rig with modern base specs, then why not do it the right way and go for it? It's not like you're forcing all users into it, as it's an optional expansion. (If the game client becomes completely unstable and would be jacked up across any platform, then that's another matter...)
Please don't mistake my questions here as me being hostile or asserting that I know all the ins and outs of development (I certainly don't). It just seems to me that if it's simply a question of hardware limitations, I'd wager that most of us would be understanding about demanding a little hardware bump in order to get the full experience that we were looking for.

For it to be optional they would have to keep supporting and maintaining two versions of the map, which isn't likely.

 

[Andrelvis]

'Sorry guys you don't get the new patch because your computer, which was completelly fine to run CK2 is outdated. Buy a new system'. Yes that would be a yerk move. You don't rise System requierements after you sell your product.

I think it would be reasonable for them to increase system requirements gradually. But considering how detailed they are making Tibet, adding China would possibly require a big increase in required specs.

 

[Andrelvis]

Bureaucracy wouldn't have to exclude dynasties. You could have a situation where all titles are only distributed by appointment and 10 or so families had a family palace. Each of the families could only be placated if their members hold high positions (as strategoii or as advisors). Angering all of them could precipitate a palace coup while angering half of them could start a civil war.

That could be nice. But I really wish family palaces were tied to provinces rather than MRs (or a hypothetical bureaucratic realm), so that patrician families could survive the destruction of a merchant republic, and possibly plot its re-establishment.

 

[Thrake]

This way of handling China just seems like a fancy facade since you can't actually physically interact with the main Empire.

Who said you can't seduce the Emperor?

 

[Aotrs Commander]

I think it would be reasonable for them to increase system requirements gradually. But considering how detailed they are making Tibet, adding China would possibly require a big increase in required specs.

Would we not be talking about essentially doubling the amount of processing required or something (given China itself (being notoriusly full of people - and thus (forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, I have not managed to get around to my Learning of Chinese History goal I set myself in January) presumably having a proportional amount of provinces), not to mention the required area before it?

 

[Andrelvis]

Would we not be talking about essentially doubling the amount of processing required or something (given China itself (being notoriusly full of people - and thus (forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, I have not managed to get around to my Learning of Chinese History goal I set myself in January) presumably having a proportional amount of provinces), not to mention the required area before it?

It's hard to say exactly how large the performance impact would be. I don't think the amount of provinces would be entirely proportional to population, but going by the quantity of provinces in Tibet, the amount of provinces would likely be pretty large. And we have to consider, too, that given how far south the game map reaches, they would have to include some non-Chinese parts of East Asia as well.

And many people's computers already have difficulty handling the game after a few hundred years pass in a playthrough.

 

[sreckom92]

This is precisely the problem with this half-baked approach to China: what we're basically getting is "Sunrise Invasion" with a handful of diplomatic flirtations to stem the tide. At least when Sunset Invasion came out, it made sense that you wouldn't be able to strike back, as the Aztec homeland was across the Atlantic; but China is so darn close!!!
Sadly, it looks like Paradox is putting on its pointy hat, grabbing its staff, and telling us that we shall not pass.

But there could still be hope...

Maybe we'll get lucky and some devs will go rogue after support for CK2 formally ends? They could start a Patreon account and develop a complete China expansion; heck, they could call the project "Manifest Destiny" and take us all the way to the Pacific! I would help fund that--just like I would've bought this expansion, had it been what we were actually hoping for.

If the East is truly closed to us for all time, then I would share with you the sentiments of a great leader of antiquity:
"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept. For there were no more worlds to conquer..."

But is it not better to have anything at all, rather than absolutely nothing for China?
Sure, it would be glorious to have the entirety of Asia on the map, but what if Paradox really cannot make it work properly? Is it not better to simply not risk it, rather than potentially ruin the game for a lot of users?
And if you don't like what this content offers, you simply don't buy it.

 

[sreckom92]

It's hard to say exactly how large the performance impact would be. I don't think the amount of provinces would be entirely proportional to population, but going by the quantity of provinces in Tibet, the amount of provinces would likely be pretty large. And we have to consider, too, that given how far south the game map reaches, they would have to include some non-Chinese parts of East Asia as well.

And many people's computers already have difficulty handling the game after a few hundred years pass in a playthrough.

If I recall correctly, even the best computers had hick-ups after the RoI patch.
And the game only regained stability after quite a lot of measures to improve the performance. One of such measures was to kill off irrelevant courtiers. While people who are not much into rpg aspects of the game might not even notice it, for me it was a significant measure.
What's next?
To kill off even more "useless" characters?
To delete every record of dead characters, except for their name and year of birth/death? (probably wouldn't even help that much)
To completely disable AI and every character interaction for a certain "irrelevant" part of the map? (if that's even possible)

Yeah, that would slowly kill the game for me... Some people would welcome it, as they don't care about trivial things like roleplay.

Of course, some people believe how the game performance can be infinitely improved. As if the devs have a magic stick, and can do wonders whenever they want. Instead, they are soooo lazy...
I am absolutely sure that China, Japan and Korea, if implemented properly, would be the best-selling Paradox DLC content.
For a company that wants to make money, that would be the most logical direction. There needs to be a darn good reason why they chose not to follow that direction.
And they said it:
"We considered doing that, long and hard, but eventually decided on a different approach that would not strain performance and stability beyond reason."

If they really believe that, then they made a rational decision. For the last couple of years, Paradox was criticized for various policies towards game and DLC content. And for a good reason.
But now they make a rational decision. They could've made a lot of money, but at the probable cost of a really tarnished reputation.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

And many people's computers already have difficulty handling the game after a few hundred years pass in a playthrough.

I have certainly noticed myself that on reaching circa 1240 from 769, the game is definitely not ticking along as fast as it did (though still fast enough).

(Compared to, say, late game Civ IV or V (or Sword of the Stars 2) which often have interminable waiting times for loading or between turns in the late-game (I abandoned my last game of the latter because of it), it's not the same order of magnitude - but then we don't want it to be.)

 

[Schlimm]

For it to be optional they would have to keep supporting and maintaining two versions of the map, which isn't likely.

As a general rule I understand the policy to maintain one version of the game during development. The tree of game versions would get out of hand very quickly. However, last I heard this was intended to be the final expansion for the game. If you're going to allow a split, this is the time to do it.

Because they Mongols did it during the game timeline? Or do you thing the devs will completelly ignore the Yuan dynasty which was just created because the Mongols invaded China?
Of course it will not happen in a normal war. But somehow it will surely be represented.

What I'm saying is that I can't see how they could represent it in a meaningful way. Whatever they do will amount to the game informing you of what's going down in China, without you having the ability to see it or "be there."

Maybe you're the type of gamer who would've been satisfied with an event chains telling you about how you won (or lost) the Crusade for the Holy Land. Me? I'm the type who wants to actually march the army in and do it.

Ultimately, if they can't put it into the game because of performance issues, and they're unwilling to raise their system requirements for the game, I think the development time would have been better spent fleshing out what's currently in the game, rather than adding China halfway to the game.

 

[Andrelvis]

If I recall correctly, even the best computers had hick-ups after the RoI patch.
And the game only regained stability after quite a lot of measures to improve the performance. One of such measures was to kill off irrelevant courtiers. While people who are not much into rpg aspects of the game might not even notice it, for me it was a significant measure.
What's next?
To kill off even more "useless" characters?
To delete every record of dead characters, except for their name and year of birth/death? (probably wouldn't even help that much)
To completely disable AI and every character interaction for a certain "irrelevant" part of the map? (if that's even possible)

Yeah, that would slowly kill the game for me... Some people would welcome it, as they don't care about trivial things like roleplay.

Of course, some people believe how the game performance can be infinitely improved. As if the devs have a magic stick, and can do wonders whenever they want. Instead, they are soooo lazy...
I am absolutely sure that China, Japan and Korea, if implemented properly, would be the best-selling Paradox DLC content.
For a company that wants to make money, that would be the most logical direction. There needs to be a darn good reason why they chose not to follow that direction.
And they said it:
"We considered doing that, long and hard, but eventually decided on a different approach that would not strain performance and stability beyond reason."

If they really believe that, then they made a rational decision. For the last couple of years, Paradox was criticized for various policies towards game and DLC content. And for a good reason.
But now they make a rational decision. They could've made a lot of money, but at the probable cost of a really tarnished reputation.

I very much agree. It would indeed be a pity to expand the scope of the game map so much at the cost of greater depth (and RPG features, which is also something I enjoy).

 

[sreckom92]

I think the development time would have been better spent fleshing out what's currently in the game, rather than adding China halfway to the game.

But they are doing just that.
As of now, you're really cut off from the rest of the world if your realm is limited to the north-eastern part of the map. Historically, China had influence one way or another in that area.
With this expansion, we'll get enhanced gameplay in the Tarim Basin, as well as in the steppes and north India. Plus, there are now a bunch of provinces and a couple of new religions/cultures in Tibet and Himalayas
Sure, that sounds a bit lackluster, but we're yet to see the full list of features for this DLC.

 

[Thure]

As a general rule I understand the policy to maintain one version of the game during development. The tree of game versions would get out of hand very quickly. However, last I heard this was intended to be the final expansion for the game. If you're going to allow a split, this is the time to do it.

No it's not.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Also note that Rajas tanked performance even on machines that well exceeded the specs. It took years until the RD patch optimized and made up the ground.

 

[Schlimm]

But they are doing just that.
As of now, you're really cut off from the rest of the world if your realm is limited to the north-eastern part of the map. Historically, China had influence one way or another in that area.
With this expansion, we'll get enhanced gameplay in the Tarim Basin, as well as in the steppes and north India. Plus, there are now a bunch of provinces and a couple of new religions/cultures in Tibet and Himalayas
Sure, that sounds a bit lackluster, but we're yet to see the full list of features for this DLC.

That is fair enough. Maybe I'll come around in time.