I finished my first CS-Game - Feedback and Suggestions

[Thesian]

but how to get revolutionary rebels at start of game

Idea group events from Religious or Aristocratic are typically the way to go.

 

[iShurik]

less than 20 provinces, trade and economic ideas, use decision to form trade republic, or aristocratic and influence for noble republic, but how to get revolutionary rebels at start of game.
-edit "More likely after 1600, 1700, 1740, and 1780." for revolutionary rebels -_-

I checked, it was in 1544.

 

[Sunspawn]

#removeblurple

 

[pgroves]

One thing that bothered me here:

Diplo Annexing(even with Influence Ideas) in lategame is more expensive than just coring, because it isn't affected by Development Efficiency or Administrative Efficiency.


As it is now:

8 diplo points for one BT vs 10 admin points for one BT without ideas. (While Tech lower than 23)
8 diplo points for one BT vs 7.5 admin points for one BT without ideas. (Tech 23)
8 diplo points for one BT vs 5 admin points for one BT without ideas. (Tech 27)
If you take Administrative Ideas it's 2.5 admin points for one BT, with claim even only 1.5 points (in lategame).
With influence Ideas it's 6 diplo points for one BT. So its 6 dip vs. 2.5/1.5 adm.

There is a policy, that reduces diplo annexing cost by further 20%, but you have to take Admin Ideas for that one - which also give -25% coring cost - and Influence Ideas. So even in that case it's way cheaper to core.

Suggestions:

a) Adding a similar modifier like Administrative Efficiency for Diplo Annexing in the diplo tech tree.
b) Adding other diplomatic options to lower the cost before Diplo Annexing (similar to claims maybe? It could be something connected to Espionage Ideas )

I'm not necessarily defending the high cost for Diplo Annexing vs. just coring, but don't forget that diplo-vassalising does give some other significant benefits over coring e.g.

• No over-extension
• No high revolt risk *whilst* coring (from not being a core + over extension)
• No nationalism
• Generally lower AE

Plus possibly other benefits etc. converting provinces for you, if same state religion as you, or even colonising for you. Also at least a few times I've managed my annexation of vassals in such a way and particular order so as to be able to accept the most cultures.

On the downside, if diplo-annexing a large different religion vassal, having lots of wrong-religion provinces all at once can be harder to manage than nibbling away and converting them as you go. Also, if you have other vassals and CNs which already have relatively high Liberty Desire, then the -3 Dip Rep from annexing a vassal could provoke independence wars.

 

[gall]

Diplo-annexation have serious disadvantages.

• You need to wait more than 10 years to get serious profits from this land. Armies of subjects are troublesome to control.
• LA 60+%, outright annexation give 40-50% +25% -(10+ years of ticking LA). If you are going to annex big vassal LA of directly annexed provinces would be lower (at least 1650+ or if at peace).
  
• You will get more AE (not much CB give any AE discount over taking provinces, most common - conquest give lower AE for outright annexation).
• Every vassal eats diplo-slot. Allies provide more support than tiny vassals.
• Big (due to feeding) vassals are typically plagued by rebels.

Biggest advantage of diplo-annexation is that it not consume same type of monarch points as coring.

 

[pgroves]

Diplo-annexation have serious disadvantages.

• You need to wait more than 10 years to get serious profits from this land. Armies of subjects are troublesome to control.

Not always easy to control, but their armies are still usually usable (doesn't always work, but I usually try to get them to attach to a single unit of my own and control them as a stack). Also they will probably add more troops to your forces than just owning the provinces would

• LA 60+%, outright annexation give 40-50% +25% -(10+ years of ticking LA). If you are going to annex big vassal LA of directly annexed provinces would be lower (at least 1650+ or if at peace).
  
• You will get more AE (not much CB give any AE discount over taking provinces, most common - conquest give lower AE for outright annexation).

Although you don't get AE if you manage to diplo-vassal - though usually the only way to do that is to force release a nation from an enemy in a war, which can cost a bunch of DIP points,

• Every vassal eats diplo-slot. Allies provide more support than tiny vassals.
• Big (due to feeding) vassals are typically plagued by rebels.

Biggest advantage of diplo-annexation is that it not consume same type of monarch points as coring.

Sure - I'm not saying that dipo-annexation is always the best option, but it does have some plus points

 

[iShurik]

Diplo annexing and direct coring have both their Pros and Cons, but 6 dip vs 2.5/1.5 adm per Dev Level seems unbalanced to me. From direct coring you get instant Trade Power, you don't have a vassal with liberty desire taking a diplo-slot and coring is much faster than diplo annexing. I wouldn't say that the one option is much better or worse than the other. So IMO they should at least be even in MP-cost.
At the start of the game it's 8 dip vs 10/9 adm, I think this is a good ratio, which should be possible for the whole timespan of the game. As I suggested, it would be nice to add something like the Administrative Efficiency for Diplo Annexing in the diplo tech tree.

Anyway; It would be nice to know whether this will be changed in the upcoming patch.

 

[superZAKTAN]

Good Stuff.

 

[Bramborough]

For me, it's the dip-relations slot which annoys me most about vassalization (and also the main reason I don't ever designate Marches). CN's don't take a slot, so I don't think it would be that unreasonable or unprecedented if vassals didn't either.

 

[Sunspawn]

For me, it's the dip-relations slot which annoys me most about vassalization (and also the main reason I don't ever designate Marches). CN's don't take a slot, so I don't think it would be that unreasonable or unprecedented if vassals didn't either.

CNs are an extension of the government, not actually independent entities. They are completely different from vassals.

Also, unless it is MP, a large vassal/march beats a large ally 10 times out of 10 - it will not WP out of wars, it will always join your wars and will never call you into wars that it cannot win without your aid.

 

[gall]

It takes more time and effort to get new big vassal. What is perhaps more important - big vassals (say 3 vassals of size similar to yours like allies) nor fight for you nor pay fee, due to LD.
@pgroves - oh i didn't use option to release a nation in ages. Maybe i will try this next time.
Diplo-vassalisation was slightly nerfed in 1.12. In few previous patches you could vassalize up to 40 BT countries. Now it is 100 dewelopment. In most areas of the world it is equivalent of 30-40 BT. Now you can't diplovassalize country with poor BT, but good Manpower base, you are stuck to this 100 barrier. I agree, these are rather cosmetic changes in comparison to dip cost. Yeah, i will forget about DIP-national focus in this patch..
However i do agree on general statement "dip-annexation is still worth considering".

 

[Sunspawn]

It takes more time and effort to get new big vassal. What is perhaps more important - big vassals (say 3 vassals of size similar to yours like allies) nor fight for you nor pay fee, due to LD.

That's why you do not keep 3 vassals equal to you, you keep 3 marches equal to you - the -25% LD from being a march is enough to keep them all loyal.