I finally found a use for a strong navy

[Howl]

AI trolling...
If you own mostly islands the AI cannot touch you.
Now pick a wargoal the AI cannot reach and speed 5 your way to victory.
Unfortunately trade conflict seems a hard to obtain casus belli.

 

[RobbieAB]

Now do Strait Talk by taking naval and maritime ideas as your openers...

 

[Question]

If you have a strong army the AI cant touch you either, and thats way more useful.

 

[Howl]

Now do Strait Talk by taking naval and maritime ideas as your openers...

I was going to take naval and maritime. But when the time for the second idea came around I looked at maritime...
Even in a game I planned on completely focussing on the navy, I still cannot see a reason to take it.

If you have a strong army the AI cant touch you either, and thats way more useful.

Well, that is obvious.
On the other hand I could not have taken on a full blown England while my force limit is only 10, so there is that.

Really this was only a funny idea for trolling the AI. Prior to soundly beating England I was fighting four wars at the same time. Basically everyone in the Lubeck trade node declared on me after I declared on Sweden and their friend Muscovy (no boats...) because I was looking weak. All those wars were won by parking two fleets in Helgoland and the Sund.
And then waiting at speed 5.

But I cannot see me continuing this game much. I have just unlocked War on the World, so now I would have to take Portuguese and Spanish Islands and then the Mediterranean. And every ten years raid every European coast? Then Africa and the world? All the while fighting wars at speed 5?

 

[RobbieAB]

I was going to take naval and maritime. But when the time for the second idea came around I looked at maritime...
Even in a game I planned on completely focussing on the navy, I still cannot see a reason to take it.

Naval force limit is potentially useful. Additional sailors is valuable if not expanding much. Ship costs is very nice in a game where the navy is large enough to have significant maintenance costs. The finisher is insane for “park the navy and forget about it” strategies.

My point about Strait Talk is you can simply park the navy and do nothing until you have 8 idea groups finished if you give up everything but the island of Hormuz itself. The AI simply does not know how to crack a navy defence on the straits. In that scenario you are utilising the all the bonus sailors you can find, not to build ships, but to get the monthly sailor growth you need to keep the fleet on station. It is a very boring strategy, but it is the purest AI trolling, winning every war with literally no army.

 

[Howl]

Naval force limit is potentially useful. Additional sailors is valuable if not expanding much. Ship costs is very nice in a game where the navy is large enough to have significant maintenance costs. The finisher is insane for “park the navy and forget about it” strategies.

My point about Strait Talk is you can simply park the navy and do nothing until you have 8 idea groups finished if you give up everything but the island of Hormuz itself. The AI simply does not know how to crack a navy defence on the straits. In that scenario you are utilising the all the bonus sailors you can find, not to build ships, but to get the monthly sailor growth you need to keep the fleet on station. It is a very boring strategy, but it is the purest AI trolling, winning every war with literally no army.

That would work. But probably only a litlle less painfull than Carthago Delenda Est.

 

[RobbieAB]

I never said it was a particularly exciting strategy, but it is amusing how badly the game falls apart when presented with it.

 

[agonistes]

It obviously depends on where you are playing, but I think a strong navy is under valued by most players.

 

[petertju]

I Might do a navy only game for shits and giggles, could be interesting

 

[holyvigil]

I Might do a navy only game for shits and giggles, could be interesting

Try it as the knights. Its fun.

 

[petertju]

Try it as the knights. Its fun.

Either that or as Hormuz for the achievement. Choices Choices xD

 

[holyvigil]

Either that or as Hormuz for the achievement. Choices Choices xD

I take it back what's absolutely pivotal to try a strong naval game with is Portuguese Pirates of the Caribbean.

 

[agonistes]

I take it back what's absolutely pivotal to try a strong naval game with is Portuguese Pirates of the Caribbean.

Try a morocco run. They get coastal raiding. And with a strong navy can cut off europe from colonizing for a long time. You can pirate caribbean and seville. With west africa you have 4 gold mines yourself to pay for your fleet.

 

[Piotrzeci]

Unfortunately trade conflict seems a hard to obtain casus belli.

Is it? It's 10 Spy Network as long as you can satisfy it's requirements, which usually means sending merchant and lights to their home trade node for a second, if it's a large opponent.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

It obviously depends on where you are playing, but I think a strong navy is under valued by most players.

The thing isn’t that a strong combat navy isn’t valuable, it is that (outside some specific circumstances) those resources can pretty much always be better invested elsewhere until you have broken the game open. Early game, the force limit and sailors are a much greater long term benefit when invested in light ships for the vast majority of tags. A small combat fleet is also not very useful early game, you generally need to go all in to reliably beat other people at sea while your lights can stomp weak nations.

The vast majority of wars can be won on land only while many wars don’t get any appreciable benefit from a navy. In addition, at peace time heavies are just a drag on your economy (even if mothballed) while your army can suppress rebels, earn money as Condottieri, or convert money into manpower by drilling. And even in situations a navy should be a huge factor, you can quite often just rely on the AI to screw up. I have crossed the Bosporus to kill the Ottomans while having no navy many times (especially once you get forced march). And for invading island powers like Britain, you don’t need to win the naval war, you just need buy enough time, which light ships can generally do (at a cost, but less than building a world class combat navy)

Late game I always have a doom stack or two of heavies as a QOL thing because I don’t care about money anymore.

My most valuable war navy ever has been a single cog that trapped something like 80k Ottoman troops on Hormuz for the entire duration of the war: sapping manpower from attrition, taking a big chunk of their income, and using up their force limit so that instead of being greatly outnumbered I could just stomp them. I have also tied down thousands of enemy troops by having a transport constant dock and undock, the AI would try to cross the straight when the ship was docked, but have to change their mind when it undocked, then it docked again and they decided to cross the straight only for it to undock...

 

[agonistes]

The thing isn’t that a strong combat navy isn’t valuable, it is that (outside some specific circumstances) those resources can pretty much always be better invested elsewhere until you have broken the game open. Early game, the force limit and sailors are a much greater long term benefit when invested in light ships for the vast majority of tags. A small combat fleet is also not very useful early game, you generally need to go all in to reliably beat other people at sea while your lights can stomp weak nations.

The vast majority of wars can be won on land only while many wars don’t get any appreciable benefit from a navy. In addition, at peace time heavies are just a drag on your economy (even if mothballed) while your army can suppress rebels, earn money as Condottieri, or convert money into manpower by drilling. And even in situations a navy should be a huge factor, you can quite often just rely on the AI to screw up. I have crossed the Bosporus to kill the Ottomans while having no navy many times (especially once you get forced march). And for invading island powers like Britain, you don’t need to win the naval war, you just need buy enough time, which light ships can generally do (at a cost, but less than building a world class combat navy)

Late game I always have a doom stack or two of heavies as a QOL thing because I don’t care about money anymore.

My most valuable war navy ever has been a single cog that trapped something like 80k Ottoman troops on Hormuz for the entire duration of the war: sapping manpower from attrition, taking a big chunk of their income, and using up their force limit so that instead of being greatly outnumbered I could just stomp them. I have also tied down thousands of enemy troops by having a transport constant dock and undock, the AI would try to cross the straight when the ship was docked, but have to change their mind when it undocked, then it docked again and they decided to cross the straight only for it to undock...

From my experience in Holland and Morocco runs,:

1) an early strong navy only needs 6-8 heavies and a flagship

2) outside of war, they contribute to piracy and coastal raiding

3) they drastically speed up wars if not entirely inland - sieging, moving troops, stack wipes, naval battles

4) the mobility is a massive force multiplier

If I were to min/max a military campaign, siege pips, FL, and a strong navy would be my priorities

As for opportunity cost... assuming you can’t raid, a strong navy is pretty cheap to maintain, and faster wars means more ducats rolling in. I view it as an economic investment that tends to pay out pretty well.

 

[Meglok]

3) they drastically speed up wars if not entirely inland - sieging, moving troops, stack wipes, naval battles

4) the mobility is a massive force multiplier

These are a couple of things people forget about navies. Sieging any port goes a lot quicker when you blockade the port. In the early game pre-cannon, a fleet of heavies can breech a fort wall from day 1 of the game. And admiral siege pips help in sieges. All of these reduce both the time it takes and the cost in manpower due to attrition.

And if you know how to do sea/land ops, you can drive your opponent crazy in MP, or just club the ai like a baby seal. Transports and a decent army can slip in and out of ports you control with the enemy unable to stop you. They can invade, or threaten to invade, forcing an opponent to rush troops where you want them. And they can reinforce a threatened coastal province faster over the water. I especially like dropping a stack on one of my ports under siege and catching a stack of cannons.

If I am playing a coastal nation, I always build a useful Navy as soon as I can afford it. The options a navy provides are too useful not to invest in, especially when I can mothball ships when not needed.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

These are a couple of things people forget about navies. Sieging any port goes a lot quicker when you blockade the port. In the early game pre-cannon, a fleet of heavies can breech a fort wall from day 1 of the game. And admiral siege pips help in sieges. All of these reduce both the time it takes and the cost in manpower due to attrition.

Also: Light Ships get you lots of cash.
Light ships go from 2 trade power at the beginning of the game to 5 at the end. That power can be multiplied by at least 1.5 again, (33% for merchant marine naval doctrine, 10% for private trade fleet priviledge, and 10% with an admiral with 2 manoeuvre).
So by mid-game they're a great way to divert trade in colonial sea nodes - which are just becoming lucrative. This also gives you naval tradition, and so buffs your navies overall.

This - in my opinion - is why maritime ideas exist - to make you obscenely wealthy.