I feel Murder Schemes should have a lower max success chance.

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vandevere

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Apart from the success rate in murder plots, there's also something else I would like. Murder plots should be limited to those where the putative murderer actually has something to gain by murdering the other person.

CK2 is absolutely littered with cases of murder plots initiated by characters who simply didn't like the Other Guy's face. So the Player has about a zillion of those on his/her plot screen, which only makes it harder to distinguish between those, and the...serious...plots against the Ruler's own dynasty.

In simple terms, there's too much noise to signal going on...
 
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sstabeler

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Apart from the success rate in murder plots, there's also something else I would like. Murder plots should be limited to those where the putative murderer actually has something to gain by murdering the other person.

CK2 is absolutely littered with cases of murder plots initiated by characters who simply didn't like the Other Guy's face. So the Player has about a zillion of those on his/her plot screen, which only makes it harder to distinguish between those, and the...serious...plots against the Ruler's own dynasty.

In simple terms, there's too much noise to signal going on...

That sounds like the problem is more that it's too common for the AI to plot to assassinate the player in the first place, not a problem with how plots are displayed.
 
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vandevere

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That sounds like the problem is more that it's too common for the AI to plot to assassinate the player in the first place, not a problem with how plots are displayed.
Actually, that's not what I was trying to say.

What I was trying to say is that Murder Plots should be limited to those who stood to gain something by offing the other guy; whether it be the other guy's spouse, or his/her piece of land.

Instead we get 99 kajillion plots where the prospective murderer stands to gain zilch, and zero, from offing the other guy. Of course, there is often the occasional plot of an heir to kill his father, or a lover trying to kill his/her lover's spouse, but those are much rarer than the other kind. And those...reason-less plots tend to swamp the player, leading him/her to miss the more important ones...
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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Actually, that's not what I was trying to say.

What I was trying to say is that Murder Plots should be limited to those who stood to gain something by offing the other guy; whether it be the other guy's spouse, or his/her piece of land.

Instead we get 99 kajillion plots where the prospective murderer stands to gain zilch, and zero, from offing the other guy. Of course, there is often the occasional plot of an heir to kill his father, or a lover trying to kill his/her lover's spouse, but those are much rarer than the other kind. And those...reason-less plots tend to swamp the player, leading him/her to miss the more important ones...
I disagree.

Rivals in particular should be able to murder each other perfectly fine.

And then there's that you might be murdering someone so that their heir will inherit, leading to your family inheriting a generation or so down the line. Or you might be murdering someone so that a vassal inherits - and then you can revoke the title he just gained for them being heretic/heathen/excommunicated/in the dungeon or whatever.

You might be murdering someone not so that you inherit something, but so that an enemy *doesn't*, or so that a large personal union will break up (say a partition based set up where a king holds 3 or 4 titles, and has enough sons for them to each recieve one title).
Or you might be trying to wipe out a branch of a dynasty or a particular faith.

All in all, limiting plots to "you've got something to gain" is bad practice because the game can't account for the situations where you might have something non-obvious to gain.
 
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Riamus

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Actually, that's not what I was trying to say.

What I was trying to say is that Murder Plots should be limited to those who stood to gain something by offing the other guy; whether it be the other guy's spouse, or his/her piece of land.

Instead we get 99 kajillion plots where the prospective murderer stands to gain zilch, and zero, from offing the other guy. Of course, there is often the occasional plot of an heir to kill his father, or a lover trying to kill his/her lover's spouse, but those are much rarer than the other kind. And those...reason-less plots tend to swamp the player, leading him/her to miss the more important ones...


Just because you don't know what they had to gain doesn't mean they don't have a perfectly good reason, even if it's just that they don't like the person. Besides, if it's really so annoying, you could just stop the spam by enabling the auto-stop plots feature. Usually once I have a larger realm, I enable that because micromanaging all of that gets really boring really quickly. But I don't see any reason why the plots should be limited.
 
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Evangeline

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Realistically, who goes to the trouble and tremendous risk of plotting to murder someone unless there's lots of hatred or lots of potential gain involved? I've never in my life heard of everyday people going around murdering any random acquaintance they don't like very much. I mean, how many people do you know who've plotted to murder someone just because they don't like them?

On the other hand, I don't know if realism would increase player enjoyment in this case: yes, it would be more immersive and make the characters feel more real, but for me at least, the characters *not* feeling real has always been a big part of why it's fun: crazy stuff happens and I don't feel too bad about doing evil deeds to them - because they're clearly not real. That makes it funny instead of sociopathic. I don't know, maybe immersion is better, but I can also see why a lack of immersion is sometimes better, also.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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Realistically, who goes to the trouble and tremendous risk of plotting to murder someone unless there's lots of hatred or lots of potential gain involved? I've never in my life heard of everyday people going around murdering any random acquaintance they don't like very much. I mean, how many people do you know who've plotted to murder someone just because they don't like them?
Potentially those with psycopathic or sociopathic disorders?

And no, you wouldn't tend to hear about "everyday" people doing this, because by definition you cease to be "everyday" once you start doing this.

But there are examples of mass murderers who don't appear to gain anything from the deaths of their victims, there are examples of people historically who it was "unlucky" to get to know, because their friends tended to have nasty fatal accidents. In some cases of mass murderers it seems almost to be a case of "why not murder them if I can get away with it?", although there may be deeper, hidden reasons that never came out.

I *do* also know a few people who've claimed that "if they could get away with it" they'd have killed people in their past. Hopefully they're full of hot air, and overstating things.

On the other hand, I don't know if realism would increase player enjoyment in this case: yes, it would be more immersive and make the characters feel more real, but for me at least, the characters *not* feeling real has always been a big part of why it's fun: crazy stuff happens and I don't feel to bad about doing evil deeds to them - because they're clearly not real. That makes it funny instead of sociopathic. I don't know, maybe immersion is better, but I can also see why a lack of immersion is sometimes better, also.
Realistically we have killers who have killed people apparently because they thought they had to kill one person born under each star sign.
We have doctors and nurse who have killed generally healthy patients in a variety of fashions, including overdoses, adulterated medication, simple deliberate bad care, inappropriate medication, or poisoning.
We have people who've kidnapped and murdered casual acquaintances and one-night sexual partners.

There are cases of people disappearing on highly travelled road systems and being found dead (or never being found again) with no sign of who disposed of them.
There are people who kill each other over losing a competition at their social clubs, or because of small continuous annoyances, or even "because he looked at me funny".
At the moment we have people on social media calling for certain people to be killed *purely* because they're in the same job as some other people who did bad things, and which has escalated in at least one case to attacks on their home, where their uninvolved family were living.

There are people who will threaten to kill you for being the wrong race, religion, or for hanging around with the wrong people. Or simply wearing the wrong colours and symbols in the wrong part of town - I once got threatened because I was wearing the wrong colour (plain, simple, off the shelf) bandana near a friend's house, to keep my hair out of my face (and more importantly the chain) whilst I repaired my push bike.
This last paragraph isn't so much "plotting" to kill people, but it is relevant in as much as you don't have to have *actually* done much to end up on someone's "I'm going to kill you if I can get away with it" list.
 
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Murder plots should be limited to those where the putative murderer actually has something to gain by murdering the other person.

CK2 is absolutely littered with cases of murder plots initiated by characters who simply didn't like the Other Guy's face. So the Player has about a zillion of those on his/her plot screen, which only makes it harder to distinguish between those, and the...serious...plots against the Ruler's own dynasty.

This was actually the case, mostly, in CK2. People would not try to kill somebody else just because of a dislike unless they had certain traits, or there was a significant offense involved (adultery, a rival, crimes against their family, etc). People who were Lunatic, Possessed, or had a murder bloodline were exceptions. They were significantly more likely to plot to kill and didn't need any reason at all.

So usually there was a reason, it just wasn't possible to discern it from within the game. However, if you looked at the game files you could find out the reasons why people would plot.

This is both good and a problem at the same time IMO. On the one hand you don't want players to be able to automatically know a person's hidden motivations, on the other hand it easily gives the impression that people's plots are almost random (how is a player supposed to know that someone with trait x wants to kill people for reason y unless they dig into game files as a hobby, and how would they even be able to know that the person has reason y in a particular case?).
 
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