I feel like refitting ships takes far too long

[SchwarzKatze]

Interestingly, I actually find this somewhat backwards - several ships actually underwent the former refits (most notably the Kongo class), while so far as I know, outside of the treaty-skirting of the Mogami-class, no warships had their main battery altered after the ship was completed, even though it should theoretically be simpler than changing the armor or engines. Even where plans existed, such as with the Scharnhorst class (and I've heard proposals existed to replace the old 16" Mark 1 guns on the Colorado class with the newer, superheavy shell capable Mark 6 guns), they were never carried out, and you'd think there would be more obstacles to doing conversions that just didn't really happen than ones that actually did.

The Furutaka class had their guns and turret layout completely changed (6 single 20 cm turrets -> 3 dual 20.3 cm turrets).

IIRC turrets are the heaviest parts of a ship only after the engines, and because they are high up, they affect the stability of the ship more than the engines, so swapping existing guns for heavier ones are difficult unless the ship is built withstand extra weight. Even in the case of the Mogamis, the triple 155 mm turrets were replaced by dual 203 mm turrets, reducing the total number of guns.

Additionally, a lot of battleships had their guns' maximum firing angles increased during the interwar years, so maybe that was considered enough?

 

[hkrommel]

I wouldn't say better, because the convertion to carrier, the refit of new engines and a new BB costs the same time. You start with 11 dockyards and after the focus Mare Nostro, you expand to 15. With 15, you need to finish your BBs in production (normally i finish all ships), refit your old CLs (they don't have armor) and DDs. To get it worse, Italy é the major with less factories in the game, and your entire air force is garbage. I'm having a hard time trying to discover how you're gonna convert 2 BBs to carriers and make +4 Littorios, being 2 in early construction. If you invest in dockyards early on, maybe, but you will probably be lackying with your army, or worse, your airforce.

If Mussolini was right in something, was when he said that, Italy is a big Carrier and doesn't need it (at least not like the japanese).

1. Refitting CLs with armor is a terrible idea. Build new ones instead and use the existing ones as scouts or screens. Numbers help.
2. Never refit DDs unless it's to convert them to DDEs. Build new ones.

 

[balmung60]

The Furutaka class had their guns and turret layout completely changed (6 single 20 cm turrets -> 3 dual 20.3 cm turrets).

IIRC turrets are the heaviest parts of a ship only after the engines, and because they are high up, they affect the stability of the ship more than the engines, so swapping existing guns for heavier ones are difficult unless the ship is built withstand extra weight. Even in the case of the Mogamis, the triple 155 mm turrets were replaced by dual 203 mm turrets, reducing the total number of guns.

Additionally, a lot of battleships had their guns' maximum firing angles increased during the interwar years, so maybe that was considered enough?

I discounted the Mogamis because they were built from the ground up for the heavy cruiser armament and only initially armed as light cruisers to skirt the naval treaties. It was technically a refit, but practically, it was just finally finishing the ships as intended.

 

[SophieX]

IIRC turrets are the heaviest parts of a ship only after the engines, and because they are high up, they affect the stability of the ship more than the engines, so swapping existing guns for heavier ones are difficult unless the ship is built withstand extra weight.

In addition and very general:
Every "weight" you put on the ship above its center of gravity is bad for the stability; the higher the worse. ( decreases the righting arm )
Every "weight" you put on the ship below its center of gravity is good for the stability ( up to a certain point of course )

 

[SchwarzKatze]

I discounted the Mogamis because they were built from the ground up for the heavy cruiser armament and only initially armed as light cruisers to skirt the naval treaties. It was technically a refit, but practically, it was just finally finishing the ships as intended.

My example for turret refits is Furutaka, Mogami is just to illustrate that even with an intentional design, upgunning a ship comes with trade offs.

 

[Happy Trigger]

1. Refitting CLs with armor is a terrible idea. Build new ones instead and use the existing ones as scouts or screens. Numbers help.
2. Never refit DDs unless it's to convert them to DDEs. Build new ones.

Do you know how many day are needed to give (refit) armor to a CL, and to give battle capacities to old DDs? LESS than 20 days.

If i follow your idea, i'll have to dispose more than half of the italian navy at the start of the game. Italy is not USA!

 

[Louella]

as far as I know, refitting engines was only historically practical on a fairly small number of ships, which were initially constructed with particular types of steam turbine engines.
The turbine & boiler sets I'm thinking of, were large and used lower steam pressures. They could be replaced by newer designs of boiler&turbine sets, which ran at higher pressure, and were smaller and lighter for a given power output. Which meant it was possible to replace the machinery in the entire engine room and have more power and a faster ship.
But beyond that, the only way to get more power was to increase the size of the engine room, which is a much much bigger project to contemplate.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Therfore you get a Mod, called Shipyard. Not only the Build-Time / Refit Time is reduced to a normal Time, which all can live with.

Some more things get overworked too:

1. The Reliability: The Construction-Reliability the Devs have forgotten in the last Patches and much more importand in the DLC.

2. The Modules: Some of the Modules give you Reliability (like Sonar, Radar, Fire Control System), where others reduce it (like higher Engines).

3. some more nice Surprisses you will see if you took it.

 

[Happy Trigger]

Therfore you get a Mod, called Shipyard. Not only the Build-Time / Refit Time is reduced to a normal Time, which all can live with.

Some more things get overworked too:

1. The Reliability: The Construction-Reliability the Devs have forgotten in the last Patches and much more importand in the DLC.

2. The Modules: Some of the Modules give you Reliability (like Sonar, Radar, Fire Control System), where others reduce it (like higher Engines).

3. some more nice Surprisses you will see if you took it.

I like the reliability features of this mod.
@Hoi Neuling You should do a suggestion in the suggestion forum about this mod.

 

[SophieX]

...
Which meant it was possible to replace the machinery in the entire engine room and have more power and a faster ship.

Yes.
But the needed steps to reach that, were a bit more complicated than you described.

And the speed surplus you gain isn't that great, compared to the "extra" of power you have to provide.

Example: A DD running 27 kn using power of 30MW . To run 36 kn a power of 60MW is needed. So for a speed-surplus of 30% you need the same power extra again ( and the space ) which is installed.
The reason is, that the speed is affected by the square of the "water-resistance" ( approximately ).

It's always a hard cost-benefit-calculation.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Yep. Thank´s to the Modder which give us a cool and much more realistic Navy-Part now in some Points (like the Speed, Durability and such).

 

[Kryndude]

Don't refit your ships. Build new ones with the IC. Refitting is extremely cost-inefficient, and the more ships you have the more you spread enemy firepower.

 

[Znail]

Yes.
But the needed steps to reach that, were a bit more complicated than you described.

And the speed surplus you gain isn't that great, compared to the "extra" of power you have to provide.

Example: A DD running 27 kn using power of 30MW . To run 36 kn a power of 60MW is needed. So for a speed-surplus of 30% you need the same power extra again ( and the space ) which is installed.
The reason is, that the speed is affected by the square of the "water-resistance" ( approximately ).

It's always a hard cost-benefit-calculation.

This is also why the current extreme speed increase from higher tech engines seems a bit absurd.

 

[SophieX]

This is also why the current extreme speed increase from higher tech engines seems a bit absurd.

Absolutely correct, and more engine-power means a decreasing range, cause we are talking about steam-engines.

 

[Neal Mac]

Don't refit your ships. Build new ones with the IC. Refitting is extremely cost-inefficient, and the more ships you have the more you spread enemy firepower.

Agreed, with very few exceptions. Slapping a better radar or fire control system on a cruiser might be worthwhile. I think it was around 30 days, and it takes about 2 years to build a new CA with 5 shipyards max. But when you get into engines and hulls etc it just sin't worth it and take almost as long as a new ship.

 

[agonistes]

Don't refit your ships. Build new ones with the IC. Refitting is extremely cost-inefficient, and the more ships you have the more you spread enemy firepower.

I dunno... you can double sub torpedo power pretty fast - so I consider that worth doing. Cruisers can be converted to carriers comparatively quickly, if you need to get a decent carrier fleet up.

There are some others if I recall... but mostly, yea, not worth it.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

I refit my Ships, because new Buildup won´t give you enough Ships. Refitet Ships with new AA, Guns, Armor, Electronics etc. are a must have. If someone wanna play like before 1.8 and MTG, he / she can do, but shoulnd´t cry if his / her Ships get full of Water (Blub, Blub, Blub).

 

[Neal Mac]

I refit my Ships, because new Buildup won´t give you enough Ships. Refitet Ships with new AA, Guns, Armor, Electronics etc. are a must have. If someone wanna play like before 1.8 and MTG, he / she can do, but shoulnd´t cry if his / her Ships get full of Water (Blub, Blub, Blub).

By the time I am humming along I don't mind too much that the older ships end up as man made corral reefs. Good for the environment and fishes.
I would never refit armor. Takes as much time almost as making a new better ship. But I am not a very sentimental guy with equipment, so to each their own.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

I testet it without and with Mod.

Weapons and Planes / Electronic-Refits are very fast everytime.

Armor Upgrades are fast to medium Timed, esp. on Cruisers and Aircraft Carriers.

Engine-Upgrades take very long for Big Ships, that´s true.

In that Case I get researched the Buildup-Research-Tree and give them for big Ships (Cruisers, Aircraft Carriers and big Ships) 5 Shipyards and high buildup Harbors.

And if you take the Shipyard-Mod you won´t have any Timeproblems (its up to 3x faster then normal). The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau you get in 1936 like in history for Example.