I feel like refitting ships takes far too long

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Paul.Ketcham

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Typically, the first nation (Italy or Japan) leaves the treaty early 1938, which means I can't start refitting to the increased levels until early 1939, leaving less than a year before the war starts (and the treaty ends completely). With almost any refit involving engines and/or armor taking 300+ days, these ships would still be in the que when the war starts. I do typically put my CV-2 (Yorktowns/Ark Royals) into the yards to add radar and better AA. I do tend to refit ALL of my Submarines (SS-1 get minelaying systems, but no changes to torpedos or engines, SS-2 get everything), and Destroyers. Sometimes I refit my CL so they are all the same standard, and if I'm really getting frisky I refit my CA-1 into CLs (only changing the guns)...particularly as the US because this allows me to build more Yorktowns without passing the UK.
I have more freedom as the US because I have an extra 2 years to play with, and sometimes refit the weaker BB-1 either into fully upgraded BC-1 or into Carriers.

This seems to be where our experience differs, I'm used to Italy or Japan leaving the naval treaty in 1936. Not 100% of the time, but most of the time. Every now and then the game goes a bit haywire for me when I'm playing the US or France and no one leaves, but typically Italy bails immediately. This might be based on default focuses versus using custom rulesets (I typically set Japan to fascist so they don't go communist and effectively kill themselves) though.
 

Col.Klink

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I was playing spain to yesterday civil war was long over etc and I decided let’s refit my 2 old battleships but then was amazed to find out (cause I had one being built) they would only finish refitting like 2 months after my super heavy battleship which was already under construction. Why would you ever refit anything if it takes the same amount of time as building a new one.

How much material does it cost per dock yard to refit them?
 

jared2122

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Its a bit of a trade-off, since usually you can build a better new ship in a somewhat-longer timeframe than it costs to refit the engines of older ships, which is why it was always a contentious fact. Most refits were done due to the Washington Naval Treaty, but a few major refits were considered outside of it (the USSR refitted its Marat-class dreadnoughts with new engines outside the treaty, and the USA considered comparable refits such as lengthening the deck of the USS Ranger, and several Pearl Harbor survivors also had extensive refits--not the engines, however).

Refitting the engines, as mentioned above, can give your capital ships a lot of utility for carrier escort; however, in the same scenario with the Italian navy, I'd rather convert the older BBs into aircraft carriers (for whatever reason, the 1922 engine still pushes them up to 30 knots) and just build new battleships or battlecruisers; this also means you don't need to bother with 1936 carrier tech for a while longer, plus Italy starts with the Littorio-class queued at 20% progress (which is going to take a while, but 2 carriers and 4 battleships is a reasonable strike force for 1936 tech).
Maybe it’s just me, but the only Italian ships that are eligible for conversion to carriers are the two cruisers, Trento and Trieste.
 

jared2122

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This seems to be where our experience differs, I'm used to Italy or Japan leaving the naval treaty in 1936. Not 100% of the time, but most of the time. Every now and then the game goes a bit haywire for me when I'm playing the US or France and no one leaves, but typically Italy bails immediately. This might be based on default focuses versus using custom rulesets (I typically set Japan to fascist so they don't go communist and effectively kill themselves) though.
for me as well. Historically, this is accurate, Japan and Italy both left in ‘36.
 
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hkrommel

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Just don't refit the engines or armor and times are reasonable. Guns take a while too but they're not as bad.
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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Maybe it’s just me, but the only Italian ships that are eligible for conversion to carriers are the two cruisers, Trento and Trieste.

There are 2 possible reasons for this:
1.) You're still in the London Naval Treaty; battleship engines make carriers too expensive to build or refit normally (at least if full-sized, and otherwise its a waste of a battleship anyways), so you might need to leave the treaty.
2.) Players sometimes are confused by the refit buttons on the side of each ship, when there is a second option at the top of the fleet view that shows both affordable and impractical refit options. The side option only shows "affordable" refits.

I'm guessing the latter is the problem, since you aren't restricted with cruiser conversions to heavy cruisers, which means you probably could convert a few light cruisers but they aren't showing up either as "affordable."
 
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jared2122

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There are 2 possible reasons for this:
1.) You're still in the London Naval Treaty; battleship engines make carriers too expensive to build or refit normally (at least if full-sized, and otherwise its a waste of a battleship anyways), so you might need to leave the treaty.
2.) Players sometimes are confused by the refit buttons on the side of each ship, when there is a second option at the top of the fleet view that shows both affordable and impractical refit options. The side option only shows "affordable" refits.

I'm guessing the latter is the problem, since you aren't restricted with cruiser conversions to heavy cruisers, which means you probably could convert a few light cruisers but they aren't showing up either as "affordable."
I have been playing this game for so many dang hours, and you just taught me option 2 is there... Thank you. I am kind of annoyed now, I’m totally going to have to start yet ANOTHER game as Italy.
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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I have been playing this game for so many dang hours, and you just taught me option 2 is there... Thank you. I am kind of annoyed now, I’m totally going to have to start yet ANOTHER game as Italy.

This is one of the reasons I was so pleasantly-surprised with Stellaris at launch for having a great tutorial; Paradox is crap at explaining its games most of the time (until the Le Guin update broke it again). Between release and major patches, they really need an in-game tutorial option like that one to explain new features as you interact with them.
 
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hkrommel

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I have been playing this game for so many dang hours, and you just taught me option 2 is there... Thank you. I am kind of annoyed now, I’m totally going to have to start yet ANOTHER game as Italy.

It's a common problem with the UI design where buttons aren't labeled and sometimes aren't obviously things you can click on. I miss the old HOI3 and HOI2 UI where you knew the diplomacy tab because it said "diplomacy." I would much prefer an upgraded version of that to what we have.

No hieroglyphic interpretation required.
 
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Crispin

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You mean the refit ships button beside the repair now button on the fleet view? I don't see what that button does differently than the other ones? What am I missing here?
 

BeauNiddle

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You mean the refit ships button beside the repair now button on the fleet view? I don't see what that button does differently than the other ones? What am I missing here?

It's a UI 'bug/design' rather than a feature issue.

The upgrade button on the individual ship entry will only show if there is a specific upgrade for that ship design. The upgrade button at the top is always there. They both do the same thing but in the past people have been confused about why the upgrade button is not showing and aren't aware there is also the upgrade button beside the repair now button.

I think the issue is due to split designs

base design -> torp hunter -> torp hunter2
-> AA defender -> AA defender2


If you have a torp hunter but no torphunter2 design it wont show the upgrade button on the ship entry even if you do have an AA defender2 since it's not a direct upgrade. So if you decide to do a merged design but based off the AA branch none of your torp designs would show the individual upgrade button.

At least I think that's how it works.
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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You guys are missing the point. It costs the same time to change the engine and build a new ship, but by 38' playing as Italy you will have finished all your ships in construction, and with the world tension above 20% you can pull out from the Naval Treat, that at this point is useless. You will expend more 1 year to refit your 2 old batteships, and will have enough time to convert your old cruisers that don't have armor, add sonar and new torpedos to your destroyers and maybe add radar and other stuff to your ships before engaging in war against the Allies. If you do that, every ship that you have will be worth 2 or 3 time 1 of the british. With enough air support, you can easely control the Mediterraneum Sea. The best part is that you can do all of that with only 15 shipyards and little resources.
I still don't see the point here. Provided your first statement is true*, would it not be better to have as many new ships along with the old ones, instead?

*Seeing how upgrading cruiser engine from tier 1 to tier 2 costs ~3000IC, which is comparable to building a new cruiser from scratch - it's not far from being true. Battleships have it easier, though: only needing like ~5000IC for similar upgrade (half the cost of new ship); considering engine costs (~2500IC) latter is, actually, somewhat sensible (cruiser engine costs ~500IC, FYI).
 

Paul.Ketcham

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I still don't see the point here. Provided your first statement is true*, would it not be better to have as many new ships along with the old ones, instead?

*Seeing how upgrading cruiser engine from tier 1 to tier 2 costs ~3000IC, which is comparable to building a new cruiser from scratch - it's not far from being true. Battleships have it easier, though: only needing like ~5000IC for similar upgrade (half the cost of new ship); considering engine costs (~2500IC) latter is, actually, somewhat sensible (cruiser engine costs ~500IC, FYI).

Cruisers usually aren't worth upgrading engines due to their low base cost, which means that you end up paying half the price of the ship for a new engine (cruisers for me usually cost closer to 4k-5k IC). Battleships, however, are expensive enough that you're still saving half a BB's worth in production time, which means more of a tradeoff of 3 BBs for 2 (3 new and 1 old versus 2 new and 1 upgraded). The old BB is still burning fuel while operating, making it somewhat inefficient for low-fuel nations, and likely needs to be refitted anyways with extra secondaries, AA, and radar.

I still tend to build new ships instead of refitting old BBs, but I frequently refit at least a few, and when production ramps up I'm a lot more likely to start refitting old BBs due to the fact that it doesn't cost a fraction of the steel to do that than it does to build a new one (late-war really hurts steel income).
 

Col.Klink

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Refiting only cost you dock-yard-space and time; but no materials

I have ZERO knowledge of naval warfare in the game but I asked because that is a key sticking point. For the USA not a big one. For countries like Japan or Italy? That is a HUGE sticking point! There just isn't enough metal to go around so using your IC to get a better ship rather than your IC and resources to get a new ship seems like a good compromise to ponder.
 
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Happy Trigger

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I still don't see the point here. Provided your first statement is true*, would it not be better to have as many new ships along with the old ones, instead?

*Seeing how upgrading cruiser engine from tier 1 to tier 2 costs ~3000IC, which is comparable to building a new cruiser from scratch - it's not far from being true. Battleships have it easier, though: only needing like ~5000IC for similar upgrade (half the cost of new ship); considering engine costs (~2500IC) latter is, actually, somewhat sensible (cruiser engine costs ~500IC, FYI).
Different from the japanases cruisers, italian ones don't start the game with armor. If you engage with them in any fight you will lose. To update armor on a ship that doesn't have any costs around 500-700IC. You can invest in new cruisers when you research the lvl 3, but you need to remember that quantity is not enough to win naval battles.

About the engines, you're right that they are expensive to change, but you have little option. In the japanese case, more than half of your ships has engine lvl1. If you don't refit them, you will have a lot of ships without use, or will be making of them a sacrifice pile in combat. I think that even the lvl1 hulls have their utility when refitted.
 
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Col.Klink

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Different from the japanases cruisers, italian ones don't start the game with armor. If you engage with them in any fight you will lose. To update armor on a ship that doesn't have any costs around 500-700IC. You can invest in new cruisers when you research the lvl 3, but you need to remember that quantity is not enough to win naval battles.

About the engines, you're right that they are expensive to change, but you have little option. In the japanese case, more than half of your ships has engine lvl1. If you don't refit them, you will have a lot of ships without use, or will be making of them a sacrifice pile in combat. I think that even the lvl1 hulls have their utility when refitted.

I'm new to this but I really can't believe Italian cruisers have no armor! How can it be a "cruiser" if it doesn't have the armor to shrug off the guns of the destroyers it's chasing!? lol.
 
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