I feel like it's really difficult to play most of the smaller nations recently

[Cathal341]

In previous patches I had no problem playing as nations like Navarra, Italian/Arabian Minors, Byzantium etc. but recently they feel really difficult to play. It's so hard for them to get any useful alliances now mainly due to things like pretty much every Major going above diplo relations and being hit with negative "X Country has too many diplomatic relations" modifiers or if your surrounded by other minors everyone just allies up and no one makes any moves leading to a stalemate. In order to get one decent attempt you have to restart like 10 times which is really just not fun at all.

For example tried to do Lucca the other day and restarted 4 times like 10 years in due to alliance blocking then today I decided to load up as Byzantium since I hadn't played them since early 2017 before MOH was released (I tend to go back to them once in a while because I've been interested in them ever since I did an essay on them in school for my final year history project) and I Restarted like 10 times without getting anywhere so I just gave up. Really killed my drive for Grand Strategy since I've been having no luck with my HOI4 runs either. I don't know whats changed in the recent patches but something feels more difficult about playing the small countries.

Anyone else feeling the same or am I just an Old School EU4 Player who hasn't picked up on how to play in the recent patches?

 

[Horn and Ivory]

I am also experiencing this. It was a little tougher to play minors on the last patch, and worse again on this one; so I don't think you're just imagining it. The too many diplomatic relations modifier is a killer. I think I'm beginning to adapt to the new status quo - it feels like when I first got cossacks and diplomatic feedback. I've starting making much more use of manually setting attitudes, and switching rivals, to lever the alliances I want. A little harder, requires a little more thought, overall I think I like it now I'm getting used to it.

 

[Cathal341]

I am also experiencing this. It was a little tougher to play minors on the last patch, and worse again on this one; so I don't think you're just imagining it. The too many diplomatic relations modifier is a killer. I think I'm beginning to adapt to the new status quo - it feels like when I first got cossacks and diplomatic feedback. I've starting making much more use of manually setting attitudes, and switching rivals, to lever the alliances I want. A little harder, requires a little more thought, overall I think I like it now I'm getting used to it.

Glad to see that I'm not alone in feeling this anyway, that makes me feel somewhat better.

 

[Dakka]

It’s getting tougher because the AI is getting smarter. It’s taking advantage of mechanics better and is better at manipulating other nations than before. Yes, it’s harder, but harder in a good way it’s a bit more challenging to beat the AI and I personally think it makes the game more enjoyable and replayable as a whole

 

[Cathal341]

It’s getting tougher because the AI is getting smarter. It’s taking advantage of mechanics better and is better at manipulating other nations than before. Yes, it’s harder, but harder in a good way it’s a bit more challenging to beat the AI and I personally think it makes the game more enjoyable and replayable as a whole

If your version of enjoyable and replayable is restarting 7 times in a row cause you get shanked then fair enough, I'm personally not enjoying it.

 

[Dakka]

If your version of enjoyable and replayable is restarting 7 times in a row cause you get shanked then fair enough, I'm personally not enjoying it.

I’m of the belief that the game is asymmetrical for a reason and you need to put in more effort to play the smaller nations and nations that failed historically. It makes it much more gratifying than just winning every time. Playing Lucca or Byzantium should be a challenge and it’s unhistorical and frankly boring if it’s as easy to succeed with them as a historical superpower like Ottomans, Spain, or Brandenburg.

 

[Cathal341]

I’m of the belief that the game is asymmetrical for a reason and you need to put in more effort to play the smaller nations and nations that failed historically. It makes it much more gratifying than just winning every time. Playing Lucca or Byzantium should be a challenge and it’s unhistorical and frankly boring if it’s as easy to succeed with them as a historical superpower like Ottomans, Spain, or Brandenburg.

Doesn't matter how much effort you put in if the AI is just not cooperating even the slightest bit. I have 840+ hours in the game so I think its fair to say I've put plenty of effort into it.

 

[Dakka]

Doesn't matter how much effort you put in if the AI is just not cooperating even the slightest bit. I have 840+ hours in the game so I think its fair to say I've put plenty of effort into it.

And I’ve put 2800 hours into the game and I still fail at times with small nations... that’s the point: overcoming adversity with limited resources. That’s why seeing a giant “Theodoro” sprawled across Central Asia is so vindicating you had to work for it and it’s not easy to do.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

Doesn't matter how much effort you put in if the AI is just not cooperating even the slightest bit. I have 840+ hours in the game so I think its fair to say I've put plenty of effort into it.

I'm dead serious when I say you're a novice until you have over 1000 hours in.

 

[saintlyknighted]

At least now it is still within the boundaries of possibility for alliance even with a -20 too many alliances; I think it used to be -50. I was pretty late to this game so almost all my playthroughs with minor nations have been with this modifier, I find that after a while it doesn’t really bother me, it’s actually pretty rare that the modifier actually makes a difference between getting an alliance and not.

 

[Daelh]

I just feel like. Complaining a OPM is hard to play? Really? It should be hard. Like, do you think its realistic to counqer the world with Lucca? I dont. And if you want an easy ride, play on easy mode without ironman.

 

[Cathal341]

Guys I'm not saying it should be easy, just that I shouldn't have to restart 10 times to get one good run. Its very annoying when I play for 30mins - 1hr and get nowhere. I've been playing since mid 2015 so I've done my fair share of playthroughs as minors, some of my favorites where done as minors but what I'm saying now is it's just really unfun to play as them.

 

[bbqftw]

There's a difference between a Byzantium start where you get all your cores back, and one where you are serious about surviving. You can do things like attack Ireland or East Frisia, of course in the process you will likely lose all your home territories. But if you want to get all your cores back with no effort, then you could just do release play as or forming Byzantium from the Ottomans.

But yeah difficulty is significantly amped up after new diplomatic AI.

 

[jdavis86]

The AI seems less deterred by alliances this patch. Small example, but I've been playing Venice this weekend. Multiple starts allied w/ France/Austria/Poland (2 of 3) didn't prevent Ottomans from declaring war.

 

[iquabakaner]

The AI seems less deterred by alliances this patch. Small example, but I've been playing Venice this weekend. Multiple starts allied w/ France/Austria/Poland (2 of 3) didn't prevent Ottomans from declaring war.

That was probably due to Ottomans having over 200 FL by 1500 this patch.

 

[cuendillar]

Guys I'm not saying it should be easy, just that I shouldn't have to restart 10 times to get one good run. Its very annoying when I play for 30mins - 1hr and get nowhere. I've been playing since mid 2015 so I've done my fair share of playthroughs as minors, some of my favorites where done as minors but what I'm saying now is it's just really unfun to play as them.

Minors are, by necessity, slower out of the blocks than local powerhouses. Never restart just because you can't get allies more powerful than you (if you won't ally anyone weaker, why should the AI do so?). How could you possibly improve if you refuse to try under suboptimal circumstances?

As to alliances, try for quantity instead of quality. Starting as an OPM, I've never yet had a HRE start where there weren't at least a couple nearby OPMs willing to ally right away. If that's not actually enough to expand, it at least gives some security against attacks and you could always build up your economy while waiting for an opportunity to strike. Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting expectations and what is considered progress to the strength of the start.

 

[Metroidkirby]

I have 840+ hours

I have more than 4000 hours and I think the number of hours played isn't a warranty of a good post on the forum.

If you can't get an alliance with a major power, then just grow with other minor, give them lands in peace deal, with them growing with you, you can defeat easily any major country. It's normal for a major power to refuse an unhelpful alliance with a minor nation, you shouldn't be bother by it.

 

[Kergan]

Guys I'm not saying it should be easy, just that I shouldn't have to restart 10 times to get one good run. Its very annoying when I play for 30mins - 1hr and get nowhere. I've been playing since mid 2015 so I've done my fair share of playthroughs as minors, some of my favorites where done as minors but what I'm saying now is it's just really unfun to play as them.

It's curious that you need to restart 10 times. It seems you're restarting until you're in a good enough starting position that you can quickly jump into the action - that is, declare your first easy war within 25 years.

As a tiny minor it's not uncommon to start the game with only another minor or two as allies, and then waiting half a century or more for your first opportunity to declare a war that you aren't nearly guaranteed to lose. It's years and years of doing mostly nothing - unless you've a neighboring bully that claims your clay.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Seems like that to me too. However I don't mind too much. But thats just me however.

 

[Horn and Ivory]

It's just occurred to me that difficulty level probably makes a big difference to your experience with this, so I'm making it explicit in the thread. I play on Hard (yeah I know I'm a scrub compared to you VH people, but I don't like the changes it makes to how the world pans out and I prefer to handicap myself with roleplaying, sue me) and it's the combination of -20 for diplomatic relations and -20 for difficulty which shuts off a lot of alliances which my instincts tell me I should be able to lever. (@saintlyknighted what do you play on?)

I think OP has a point - not that hardness is bad but that un-fun is bad, and sitting around waiting for an opportunity for half a century is un-fun. I think, if carried, this is a fair point. In the HRE and similar starts it's rarely going to be so bad because there's usually some other minors around with few or weak allies that you can get a CB on, but this isn't true in a lot of ROTW starts or with isolated little nations like Navarra.

I think it's not as bad as OP thinks - I've found that it's forced me to learn, make use of more tools, and make use of some strategies which I wouldn't normally consider such as no-CB wars, and once I've got ~40 development and borders with a few different nations things open up a bit more. But I've played only a few games in recent patches, all in Europe, Persia, and northern India, featuring plenty of confirmation bias. If the OP's had a bad few games I can definitely see how it could seem like a frustrating, anti-fun change.

@Cathal341 - have you considered trying games with a couple of HRE minors with the explicit aim of learning the new techniques small starts now require? I suspect if you resign yourself to ten hours of fiddling with notification settings and wondering 'can I get a border with X and set my attitude to threatened so that I can lever an alliance with X's rival Y' you'll be able to learn what you need to get started a bit faster with trickier minors.