I Don't Want To Be That Guy But...

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DanaDark

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Feel I should chime in...

When it comes to development, seems some people have become spoiled. The insistence the game be FLAWLESS at launch is near valid for some companies, but not for Paradox games. Paradox developers constantly update their games and make changes based on community involvement. Good luck getting that from an EA game for example. So, if you have problems SAY SOMETHING and it'll likely be addressed in time.

Seriously people, you have NO CLUE how absolutely wonderful that sort of interaction is...

As far as Utopia goes... the mechanics it changes coincides with free patches. The patches typically contain the base gameplay changes while the expansions add features in. CK2 and EU4 do this all the time. Perhaps someone with little to no experience with Paradox games and their development would be worried, but I am not.

TL;DR: Chill.
 

KingHoot

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...either accept it or find a much smaller game.

If you did not want others to form an opinion of what you type perhaps you should not type it in the first place.

The first quote is a perfect example of a "fuck-you" ultimatum and the second quote is simply passive-aggressive. Neither add anything to your argument. All they do is come across as inflammatory.

I concede that this may not have been your intent, however many others on this thread have managed to voice their opinions without this kind of thing. I might make the polite suggestion that you learn from them for future reference :)
 

Fourthspartan56

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The first quote is a perfect example of a "fuck-you" ultimatum and the second quote is simply passive-aggressive. Neither add anything to your argument. All they do is come across as inflammatory.

I disagree, it is my position that bugs are inevitable until they're fixed. So if that's a deal breaker for you then you there isn't much you can do, I wasn't trying to make some kind of ultimatum simply expressing the reality of it.

I concede that this may not have been your intent, however many others on this thread have managed to voice their opinions without this kind of thing. I might make the polite suggestion that you learn from them for future reference :)

Maybe, I don't view what I said as unacceptable but I won't ignore any possible lessons there are to learn here.
 

melkor88

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Stellaris is not a big game, it's really not. The only big thing about it is the number of operations your system has to undergo in late game scenarios.

The amount of content is relatively small compared to other games. Additionally it's only 32bit which is an insane thing to do in this age of 64bit, and although optimisation can solve late game lag without any need for 64bit it is the 32bit engine that will ultimately limit the amount they can expand the game over its life time.

The max RAM usage for stellaris is 4GB, 2 of which are currently taken up by visual assets alone, and thats not even considering the system RAM usage which increases as a game session progresses.


I am not saying you are wrong, as I do not know enough about this, but I am certain somewhere here you will find the Devs talking about why it is 32bit, and that 64bit wouldn't make things any different. Although it could have been HOI4 they talked about it.
 

Adamsrealm

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Do you ever hit 4gb in Stellaris? We have been through this many times before in this forum, Stellaris can use 4gb and your windows/other programs can use the rest, even in 32bit windows.

Yes, they should switch eventually, but it also comes at a cost for the company as it limits the audience. The paradox forums are full of people playing on old systems with (presumebly) 32bit windows.

I have crashed the game due to memory limit, it wasn't the ships that caused it, even though I was fielding a 9999 corvette swarm. It was the length of the game that caused the crash, once the years that had passedi ticked over 2500 years (can't remeber the exact date, and the lag was almost unbearable) it crashes "due to an access violation" which is basically hitting the RAM limit.

A long game can easily end up taking well over 1GB of game system Ram if played long enough. Alongside the 2GB already take by visual assets that leaves 1 or less GB for game expansion.

Additionally no modern operating systems are 32bit now, all OS's curently in active circulation are 64bit, so it's the users problem if they don't upgrade. Additionally certain encryption cyphers cannot read or used by 32bit systems, the basic thing to understand is 32bit is almost dead and most OS developers are actively trying to force people onto 64bit due to cost, functional & security reasons.

But OS has very little to do with engine being 32/64bit as 64bit OS's can run 32bit applications, the optimisation is most important curently and 64bit is important in the long term development, due to the extremely high RAM limit. RAM allows more content, and not necessarily faster game function
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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The discussion of bug acceptance does actually raise interesting questions regarding Paradox's development model. No other developer I've ever seen has instructions for reverting to a prior model right on their forums because no other developer completely overhauls a game for free.

Where another developer would be saving features for "Stellaris 2" the developers at Paradox decide whether it's going to work and they throw it in to the produce you've already purchased.
 
Last edited:

Almond_Brown

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It would seem a certainty that Paradox would love nothing better than to be able to Produce games, like Stellaris for a mere 100,000 dollars and spend way more time and effort in the QA phase, which delays things, sadly. Given that even a small Dev facing strict deadlines (always delayed due to the nature of Development of Code) don't have that luxury anymore.

Today's gaming consumers "consume" roughly 5X the amount of gaming material than they did just 10-15 years ago, when a game did cost 100K to make and Patching was quite a luxury, versus having "direct access" from Project Day 1 of the Game Dev cycle like we have today.

A Bug-Free game is a misnomer, and no level of QA will catch them all. If one thinks different, then code a million lines and take the time to QA and fix every BUG... Short of that, it is something both gamer and Dev have to live with. As long as the Dev continue to persue those BUGS when reported, it is as good as it gets.

Stating that an incomplete "play-style" is a BUG is disingenuous really. Like any other "personal taste", a Dev team can't surely please everyone everywhere. The fact one does not "like the way it plays" does in no way mean it is "bugged".

What I think we need a return to is the "Demo" game mode and get away from the "I want to see it being built BS" we have today. Sadly, that means Dev teams will need to source their cash flow themselves and apparently, outside Investors are moving away from Games of certain types, those being anything but the "sure winners" and as such the whole KickStart and Buy-In for early access and to watch the process of today. Though some have had success doing this, sort of.

"Game Hype" is for those who assume getting exactly what they want. Never assume, thus saving oneself the let down, it if happens.

"Demo me up Mr/Ms. Dev". I will tell you after, even a cursory Test, whether or not I got coin for your product, not before like today... :)
 

GamerSteve

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What major bugs? Anyway what I said is absolutely not a cop out, Banks will be changing the game massively so if you expect a completely bug free experience you will be sorely disappointed.

I think it depends on what you define as a 'bug.'

To me, a 'bug' is something that is designed correctly but has been implemented in a broken manner. For example, the devs accidentally introduce an equation that, due to a typo, causes a divide-by-zero error that crashes the game. Or, as another example, they intend, and state in the docs, that naval capacity is population times 5, and again, due to a typo or a mistake, it is actually population times 50. These are unintended issues that arise to to large programming code-bases and the fact that humans write code, and humans are not infallible, and therefore, there will be bugs or mistakes in the code. Clicking on something and not getting the proper response from the UI, for example, is another sort of bug. You are quite correct that it is impossible to have a game of the size and complexity of Stellaris without bugs.

But the OP, and subsequently one or two others like myself, is not worried so much about bugs. Bugs are code errors or spreadsheet errors and they will be found and fixed. Many dev teams, and it would not shock me to learn that pdx is similar, have one full-time programmer whose main job is to track down bugs and squash them. They will get to those, and we can live with it until the can. But there are other issues such as game balance issues, which absolutely will be introduced as a result of this massive DLC and the OP is right to be concerned about how these will affect the game experience. How the political changes alone will affect nearly every single player's game play, and what this will mean for a whole variety of game experiences from War in Heaven to Vassalizing smaller empires is difficult to predict because, again, only a small # of people have so far tested things out. These game balance issues are not bugs, but underlying design elements which may even be working as intended and still not well liked by players. Sectors are a great example of this -- lots of us hate them or at least how they are implemented. They are not bugged -- but some of us don't like the way they are designed. Elements such as this, we cannot have any confidence will be changed (as sectors, fundamentally, have not for the entire 8 or so months the game has been live), because they are technically working as intended, and are just designed in a way we don't like.

Another great example is missiles. It is taken as a given at this stage that missiles are gimped, because of some basic aspects of how they work. One major flaw people cite is that missiles in flight will disappear (and do no damage) if the ship that launched them is destroyed. This causes missiles to do less damage over the long term than the other attack types, and consequently most players stay away from missiles. Does Utopia implement changes to missiles that will fix this issue? And if so, what are the chances that the 'fix' will break something else that previously had been working, like lasers or plasma? I think most people would agree that if the fix, for examples, goes from making missiles 'teh gimporz' to 'teh ubarzz' in one go, that is not what people want -- they want parity, so that what weapon you choose is a flavor choice or a choice among different but equivalent power levels. Not for missiles to become a god-weapon.

None of these are 'bugs' -- these are game design elements. According to the dev diaries, hundreds of basic core game systems are going to be changed or affected in some minor or major way by Utopia. Exactly how these will all interact with one another in-game to affect the average player's experience is impossible to foresee. And thus, the OP is right to be worried. And I submit, respectfully, that he is also right to complain that dismissing his concerns as being about 'bugs' is a misrepresentation of the facts -- and a dodge.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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o_O

The reason was that each new feature seemed to be broken and awaiting either several patches or further DLC to sort it out.

IE: Sectors absolutely were buggy and did not work very well at all. Of all parts of the game they were probably the buggiest, even after patches that supposedly fixed them. Their biggest issue that was not a bug was how they interacted with factions, which is being fixed by virtue of obsolescence in Banks.
 

Hidden Gunman

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I've read all of the development diaries for Utopia and it looks promising. Normally this would be cause for a joyous feeling of anticipation but shortly after Leviathans I began to feel burned by my purchase of Stellaris and it's DLC.

The reason was that each new feature seemed to be broken and awaiting either several patches or further DLC to sort it out.

I mean they have gutted so much of what the original Stellaris was and rightly so (this is a good thing) but as of now things like purging, sectors and slavery are still threadbare and in some cases outright broken. I know Utopia is being developed to address these things as well as add new features but man...these are CORE systems that shipped with the original game.

Patch after patch after patch after iteration after iteration. My worry is that all Utopia will do is introduce a new broken gamestate which will need to have a further 4 or 5 patches and a follow-up DLC to fix.

CK2 and EUIV are some of my favourite games but they just feel like they are in a different league to Stellaris. With the recent DLC pricehike from Paradox and the way the development of the game has gone up to this point...it's not really worth throwing anymore money at it if I'm not gonna get a "feature complete, bug free" game.

EDIT :- Please don't take this post as vitriol. I so very much WANT the Utopia expansion to make the Stellaris on my hard-drive the same as the Stellaris in my mind (which kinda formed during the first livestreams of the games on Twitch, Blorg ♥) I'm just not convinced given the developmental track record.

Sadly, as gamers, we will always see games that have problems. That's the state of the industry. Because digital product is largely treated differently to physical product, when we purchase a game it's bought 'as is', and there is no recourse due to that EULA we agree to by purchasing the game. Some places are rolling out protections, like Australia where Steam now has had a refund law forced on them (and good work too, they had jacked up the prices for Australia before that), but on the whole that EULA is the 'get out of jail free card' for game publishers and developers.
 

AndragonLea

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Sadly, as gamers, we will always see games that have problems. That's the state of the industry. Because digital product is largely treated differently to physical product, when we purchase a game it's bought 'as is', and there is no recourse due to that EULA we agree to by purchasing the game. Some places are rolling out protections, like Australia where Steam now has had a refund law forced on them (and good work too, they had jacked up the prices for Australia before that), but on the whole that EULA is the 'get out of jail free card' for game publishers and developers.

Funnily enough, that same EULA we agree to has been repealed in almost any instance that it has been brought before a court. Many of them contain stuff that is entirely out of bounds for any agreement you sign - EULAs don't supercede copyright, fair use or warranty rights for example.

The problem lies not in us signing away our rights but in the very likely occurence of us just not caring enough to fight a game company all the way to the courtroom. That's very expensive and takes a lot of time. Time better spent doing pretty much anything else.
 

spartansociety

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I have crashed the game due to memory limit, it wasn't the ships that caused it, even though I was fielding a 9999 corvette swarm. It was the length of the game that caused the crash, once the years that had passedi ticked over 2500 years (can't remeber the exact date, and the lag was almost unbearable) it crashes "due to an access violation" which is basically hitting the RAM limit.

A long game can easily end up taking well over 1GB of game system Ram if played long enough. Alongside the 2GB already take by visual assets that leaves 1 or less GB for game expansion.

Additionally no modern operating systems are 32bit now, all OS's curently in active circulation are 64bit, so it's the users problem if they don't upgrade. Additionally certain encryption cyphers cannot read or used by 32bit systems, the basic thing to understand is 32bit is almost dead and most OS developers are actively trying to force people onto 64bit due to cost, functional & security reasons.

But OS has very little to do with engine being 32/64bit as 64bit OS's can run 32bit applications, the optimisation is most important curently and 64bit is important in the long term development, due to the extremely high RAM limit. RAM allows more content, and not necessarily faster game function


Fair enough, I have not had that happen yet. Not arguing 64bit is useless, the GalCiv3 devs made a few posts about the advantages for their game during development. Maybe CK3 will be 64bit.
 

GamerSteve

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Funnily enough, that same EULA we agree to has been repealed in almost any instance that it has been brought before a court. Many of them contain stuff that is entirely out of bounds for any agreement you sign - EULAs don't supercede copyright, fair use or warranty rights for example.

The problem lies not in us signing away our rights but in the very likely occurence of us just not caring enough to fight a game company all the way to the courtroom. That's very expensive and takes a lot of time. Time better spent doing pretty much anything else.

And on top of this most EULAs are written in very legalistic language, and people assume they have the force and effect of law, or even of a standard written contract... which case after case has demonstrated they do not.
 

Grubsnik

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As a developer. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that bugs make it into production once in a while. Some bugs are easy to reproduce, others will only happen for users, but never when a developer tries to see it happen. Some bugs are easy to fix, others mired so deep in goo that it sometimes is better to just let them be, rather than risk a cascade of new bugs. Stellaris has a lot of bugs. Some of these bugs are blatantly obvious, simple to reproduce and quick to fix, yet persist in the codebase long after they should have been resolved.

The fact that some people are publishing and maintaining "bugfix" mods, because some of these bugs are in the scripted parts of the game, for all to see, is quite frankly an embarrassment. The coder/scripter responsible, should download those mods, review the changes against the base game and push the needed fixed out as a fresh game version. Since everything is script-based, you wouldn't even need to compile anything.
 

GamerSteve

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As a developer. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that bugs make it into production once in a while. Some bugs are easy to reproduce, others will only happen for users, but never when a developer tries to see it happen. Some bugs are easy to fix, others mired so deep in goo that it sometimes is better to just let them be, rather than risk a cascade of new bugs. Stellaris has a lot of bugs. Some of these bugs are blatantly obvious, simple to reproduce and quick to fix, yet persist in the codebase long after they should have been resolved.

Again bugs bother me FAR less than flawed basic game design elements, like the way war goals work, which have been a nightmare from the start and have never been adequately addressed.

And to me the *most* aggravating thing about the Stellaris war goal system is that it is based on the CK 2 and EU 4 systems, but -- I don't know about EU 4, but I do for CK 2... the CK 2 system is infinitely better and more refined. Just the existence of a 'ticking war score' would go a long way to solving Stelarris' problems (along with making the war goal planets worth extra war score just like war goal territories are in CK 2). So the question becomes, why didn't they bother to use the best parts of their existing game that uses the same (Clause) engine? And worse, there is little real acknowledgment of what the actual war goal/ score problems are or how to fix them.
 

Meneliki

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Just the existence of a 'ticking war score' would go a long way to solving Stelarris' problems

Agreed.

At the end the day, I don't think I'm as frustrated with the issues as the OP is, but I am a bit disappointed in this thread's reaction to his feedback. Seemed kinda harsh. I love Stellaris and will continue to throw money at it, but it's by no means a perfect game. The OP isn't 'wrong', the game definitely has it's flaws. I'm confident that most of them will be ironed out in due time, and within a few years of development at this pace the game will take it's place beside CK2/EU4.

In the meantime, take a hit off the old Stratamene Gas Bong and chiiiiiillllllllllll dudes... ;)
 

GamerSteve

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At the end the day, I don't think I'm as frustrated with the issues as the OP is, but I am a bit disappointed in this thread's reaction to his feedback. Seemed kinda harsh.

Again I think people are confusing his criticism with complaints about bugs. If taken that way I can understand the harsh reaction, but they misunderstood the original post.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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As a developer. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that bugs make it into production once in a while. Some bugs are easy to reproduce, others will only happen for users, but never when a developer tries to see it happen. Some bugs are easy to fix, others mired so deep in goo that it sometimes is better to just let them be, rather than risk a cascade of new bugs. Stellaris has a lot of bugs. Some of these bugs are blatantly obvious, simple to reproduce and quick to fix, yet persist in the codebase long after they should have been resolved.

The fact that some people are publishing and maintaining "bugfix" mods, because some of these bugs are in the scripted parts of the game, for all to see, is quite frankly an embarrassment. The coder/scripter responsible, should download those mods, review the changes against the base game and push the needed fixed out as a fresh game version. Since everything is script-based, you wouldn't even need to compile anything.
Yes, those situations ARE embarrassing... there is a total failure of communication somewhere, as the only plausible reason for such persistent dumb bugs is that the person who is supposed to fix them is totally unaware those bugs exist. Or is the That Guy malingering coworker.
 

Azhcristokos

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I completely understand your relative pessimism, OP. I kind of share it though I am more optimistic than pessimistic.

The one thing I do have to point out is that, in my opinion, I regretted "wasting" my money on CK2 when I first bought it; I now have almost 700 hours on it. I thought EU IV was a skeletal half-upgrade to EU III, but now I find it to be far more engaging and can't ever go back to 3.

I am not advocating in favor of Paradox's business model or saying Stellaris' evolution is guaranteed to be stellar (sorry for the pun), but my history with Paradox games leaves me more optimistic.

Me and my friend are waiting for the first hotfix though before we start a game. Rajas of India taught me a lesson indeed.
 

GamerSteve

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Me and my friend are waiting for the first hotfix though before we start a game. Rajas of India taught me a lesson indeed.

That is probably good advice. I may see if I can get my co-op buddy to hold off as well though of course we are both itching to start another game (but don't feel it's worth doing now as we will never get it finished before Utopia drops).