I don't understand something about Stellaris's hyperspace tech

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Mastikator

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Thats a very simple to the bone explenation . you forgot to add, that once you watch your card that change and so does the other one , at the same time invery different space, meaning that they TIMETRAVEL OR they can exchange information FTL .

i would have used our immagination . we can immagine to go FTL . thats doesn't count as speed for how we define things , or yes?

we attribuite to sound speed, we attribuite to light speed, we attribuite to wind a speed. all those are very different way of having a "speed" .

the solution that there is timetravel , is quite romantic , but is jumping to zebra before considering horses.
at best there is lost-casuality , where the information for the cause of a event is lost . thats the closest thing to time-travel , and is theoricaly achived by blackholes.
I think it's more apt to say "unicorns, not pegasus" rather than "horses, not zebras" when it comes to FTL travel and time travel ;) . Neither are possible. When a phenomena breaks physics it usually means it's not possible, and in other cases it's only possible in a way we don't understand. The kind of FTL we see in fiction is impossible.
 
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Verx90

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That we use light to see has nothing to do with it. C is the speed of a massless particle and light is the massless particle we're most familiar with so we call it the speed of light. But it's not "seeing" things that's the issue, it's how the behaviour of matter with mass when approaching C interacts with objects traveling faster than light.

Here's an old but good walkthrough:
Why FTL implies time travel (tachyon pistols)
I do not seems to understand .. you yourself post example of why it is "time travel" only for the observer in it because they SEE others "traveling time" , but keep not understanding that the idea that this is " time traveling " is simply one of the possible solution , the weirdest one actualy.

matter have a realy hard time getting to lightspeed, once reached it is total destruction ; first come plasma state then evrything start to fall apart and divide in particles .

while we all know FTL travel is impossible in this reality ,we can explain the idea of stellaris with the concept of "another dimension" that is called hyperlanes . in this dimension you can travel all the distance you want and you will come out of the hyperlane shortly after you entered it . another reality , other rules. they do not actualy travel faster than light ( well, i mean, if you considerate theyr speed INSIDE the starsystems they are still going way faster than light but... lets ignora that) but simply use another reality to achive the same result.


at the core of the discussion is the fact that if you travel faster than light , other observer will see you in 2 places at the same time if not in your arrival point BEFORE you even start .

you may think this mean that you would see yourself at the arrival point before you start , but this doesn't happen. because light is reflected on your body. you will not see yourself at the arrival point because you were not there when you started , BUT at the arrival point you will see yourself starting.

observer will see you in 2 places, you will see yourself in 2 places , but the casuality is maintend and there is no timetravel, only observervation falacy of using light to observe the fenomenon.

as i said,IF FTL is achivable, light is not the way to measure, observe, or calcuate it.
 
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Verx90

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I think it's more apt to say "unicorns, not pegasus" rather than "horses, not zebras" when it comes to FTL travel and time travel ;) . Neither are possible. When a phenomena breaks physics it usually means it's not possible, and in other cases it's only possible in a way we don't understand. The kind of FTL we see in fiction is impossible.
well... unicorns are surely more probable :D .


FTL seems to be impossible.. thats actualy a shame , because all our sci fy fantasy are probably never going to be reality . the timeframe that the galaxy would work on will require a ... scary ... quantity of time .

and i don't even whant to think about what gravity\time would do when you travel across stars ... you should not lose too many .... months? right? i don't remember how much the clocks lost when simply "far" from earth gravity ...
 

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i don't remember how much the clocks lost when simply "far" from earth gravity ...
it depends on the speed of the clock
 
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Olterin

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at the core of the discussion is the fact that if you travel faster than light , other observer will see you in 2 places at the same time if not in your arrival point BEFORE you even start .
I was thinking long and hard whether to add to this or not, given how videos have already been posted. And I'm not sure that what I'm about to say will help. So, here goes nothing:

The thing about tachyons (FTL particles) and time travel in special relativity, as we understand is as follows, it requires a somewhat specific scenario to really showcase. First off, the premise of special relativity: "all inertial reference frames are equally valid". This means that whatever happens as observed in one inertial frame, actually happens. This principle is yet to be shown as being invalid, or have limits of being applied.

So here's the scenario: we have two rockets, both going at relativistic velocities, let's say 0.5c each. They see each other, and are constantly exchanging signals so as to synchronise time. At one point, call it T1, the first rocket sends out an FTL particle, which will arrive on the other rocket at another point, call it T2'. Both pilots have agreed beforehand that once this happens, they will radically change course so as to be moving in the opposite directions (i.e. they were approaching each other, and will then move away from each other).

Original "timeline", point of view of first rocket: rockets are approaching each other, tachyon is sent out, rocket starts accelerating the other way until it reaches 0.5c again. Point of view of the second rocket: rockets are approaching each other, tachyon is received, rocket starts accelerating the other way until it reaches 0.5c. So far so good, right?

Now here comes the crux of the matter - is our tachyon always moving at superluminal velocities? It has to, to qualify as a tachyon, right? Let's say it does. Let's also say, that much like photons, to any observer it always moves at the same velocity. This is the sticking point right here, repeat it with me: the tachyon moves at a fixed velocity in a vacuum for an observer no matter what reference frame is used.

Ok, so, let us return to the rockets - their frames of reference have now significantly shifted, having changed direction, thus their view of each other will have radically shifted too. But not only that - that same tachyon that was sent from the first rocket to the second? Will now look completely different (as in, a totally different kind of tachyon) to the rocket receiving it. It will have a different velocity for starters, and as such will be perceived as a wholly different kind of tachyon. But what's worse: this new tachyon can now arrive at a point in time that's earlier in the worldline of the first rocket than when it had originally sent out their tachyon.

The underlying physics relates to how one changes from one reference frame to another and how that affects the view on every event around, including observing this tachyon (let's pretend it can be observed). I recommend looking up Minkowski spacetime diagrams, and I'm pretty sure I'd seen an animated version of this explanation somewhere too.

The comparison with soundwaves breaks down on a fundamental level, I'm afraid - the fabric of reality, as we understand it, is tied up with time on a fundamental level through the speed of light. You only get spacetime with specifically the speed of light. The unique thing about the speed of light is that all observers in all reference frames will agree on what it is (and there is exactly one such constant). So, unless our understanding is flawed, being able to send information, or travel, faster than the speed of light is bound to enable timetravel of some form. Every possible experiment to date has confirmed that those changes in reference frames behave exactly as our theories (special and general relativity) predict them to.

... And that is why quantum things happening instantly, as far as we can tell, is "spooky action at a distance" - it is something that violates this fundamental thing in relativity, and nobody's been able to reconcile quantum mechanics with relativity thus far. And both work pretty well within their respective margins.


TL;DR: tachyons violate relativity in a bad way. But relativity can be bent to enable sort-of-ftl (wormholes, warp drive), at least hypothetically. And Stellaris is a game where Relativity isn't even remotely being considered - and almost all sci-fi (and sci-fantasy) features FTL without much concern for what that does to timelines (timetravel plots are another beast from FTL travel, usually). If you want to understand why exactly tachyons violate relavity in a bad way, learning Special Relativity is sufficient and recommended.

My apologies for rambling, carry on.
 

Verx90

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I was thinking long and hard whether to add to this or not, given how videos have already been posted. And I'm not sure that what I'm about to say will help. So, here goes nothing:

The thing about tachyons (FTL particles) and time travel in special relativity, as we understand is as follows, it requires a somewhat specific scenario to really showcase. First off, the premise of special relativity: "all inertial reference frames are equally valid". This means that whatever happens as observed in one inertial frame, actually happens. This principle is yet to be shown as being invalid, or have limits of being applied.

So here's the scenario: we have two rockets, both going at relativistic velocities, let's say 0.5c each. They see each other, and are constantly exchanging signals so as to synchronise time. At one point, call it T1, the first rocket sends out an FTL particle, which will arrive on the other rocket at another point, call it T2'. Both pilots have agreed beforehand that once this happens, they will radically change course so as to be moving in the opposite directions (i.e. they were approaching each other, and will then move away from each other).

Original "timeline", point of view of first rocket: rockets are approaching each other, tachyon is sent out, rocket starts accelerating the other way until it reaches 0.5c again. Point of view of the second rocket: rockets are approaching each other, tachyon is received, rocket starts accelerating the other way until it reaches 0.5c. So far so good, right?

Now here comes the crux of the matter - is our tachyon always moving at superluminal velocities? It has to, to qualify as a tachyon, right? Let's say it does. Let's also say, that much like photons, to any observer it always moves at the same velocity. This is the sticking point right here, repeat it with me: the tachyon moves at a fixed velocity in a vacuum for an observer no matter what reference frame is used.

Ok, so, let us return to the rockets - their frames of reference have now significantly shifted, having changed direction, thus their view of each other will have radically shifted too. But not only that - that same tachyon that was sent from the first rocket to the second? Will now look completely different (as in, a totally different kind of tachyon) to the rocket receiving it. It will have a different velocity for starters, and as such will be perceived as a wholly different kind of tachyon. But what's worse: this new tachyon can now arrive at a point in time that's earlier in the worldline of the first rocket than when it had originally sent out their tachyon.

The underlying physics relates to how one changes from one reference frame to another and how that affects the view on every event around, including observing this tachyon (let's pretend it can be observed). I recommend looking up Minkowski spacetime diagrams, and I'm pretty sure I'd seen an animated version of this explanation somewhere too.

The comparison with soundwaves breaks down on a fundamental level, I'm afraid - the fabric of reality, as we understand it, is tied up with time on a fundamental level through the speed of light. You only get spacetime with specifically the speed of light. The unique thing about the speed of light is that all observers in all reference frames will agree on what it is (and there is exactly one such constant). So, unless our understanding is flawed, being able to send information, or travel, faster than the speed of light is bound to enable timetravel of some form. Every possible experiment to date has confirmed that those changes in reference frames behave exactly as our theories (special and general relativity) predict them to.

... And that is why quantum things happening instantly, as far as we can tell, is "spooky action at a distance" - it is something that violates this fundamental thing in relativity, and nobody's been able to reconcile quantum mechanics with relativity thus far. And both work pretty well within their respective margins.


TL;DR: tachyons violate relativity in a bad way. But relativity can be bent to enable sort-of-ftl (wormholes, warp drive), at least hypothetically. And Stellaris is a game where Relativity isn't even remotely being considered - and most all sci-fi (and sci-fantasy) features FTL without much concern for what that does to timelines (timetravel plots are another beast from FTL travel, usually). If you want to understand why exactly tachyons violate relavity in a bad way, learning Special Relativity is sufficient and recommended.

My apologies for rambling, carry on.
I'm well aware that our reality (our understanding) of reality is chained with light being the final velocity. That's the whole premise.

But if you considerate light as simply any other speed, and simply being the limit at witch waves can go, then it is not different from sound.

The whole idea is that nothing goes faster than light, if something goes faster than light.. IF.. Then our vision is no more a suitable way to describe and observe reality. The 2 rockets will require a different system, because our understanding of how things work is on the basis that Nothing goes faster than light.
There are multiple events that may describe why of evrything at any point, but there is a constant.

Even in quantum phisics, nothing goes back in time for itself, only external observer can describe things as 'time travel' but in reality it is always about a particle having a 'instany' reaction.
As for example the entanglement, the 2 particle will change every time they are observed at the same time, this doesn't mean they travel time, they simply communicate 'instantly'. But 2 external observer may see those 2 particle having the reaction in they perception of time frame and by the 'time disparicy' of the distance and gravity may come to the result that those particle timetraveled.


IF FTL exist, we can't observe it with light, and the speed in witch it act is way outside our sensibility to time. The galaxy may be full of FTL object, but we are incapable of observ8ng them or understand them.

P. S. Im writing from cellphone with really little keyboard, sorry for English blasphemy.
 
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Verx90

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No I didn't. You should probably reread it.
"relativity proposes that the definition of "right now" is also different, depending on which observer's"

It is literally at the start of the whole exercise.

One problem is that it is based on a theory that prove there is no FTL.

And that it is probably wrong, but the best one we have.



As another point, this whole try is based on the fact that the tachyon can't be altered by nothing, but reality is quite clear about the fact that everything is altered by gravity, time. So I don't see it as reliable but just grow my argument against timetraveling in FTL.
 

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"relativity proposes that the definition of "right now" is also different, depending on which observer's"

It is literally at the start of the whole exercise.

One problem is that it is based on a theory that prove there is no FTL.

And that it is probably wrong, but the best one we have.



As another point, this whole try is based on the fact that the tachyon can't be altered by nothing, but reality is quite clear about the fact that everything is altered by gravity, time. So I don't see it as reliable but just grow my argument against timetraveling in FTL.
That's not what an "observer" is. An observer is not someone looking at something using light. Ignore light, light is a red herring. It's about how mass behaves as it approaches C relative to a frame of reference.
 
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I will try to say my affirmation, so maybe you can understand and debate against it.

If FTL is real, other observer are incapable (with nowday tech or perception) to describe you, other observer(not yourself) can describe your action as timetraveling , but you will be the only reliable observer as you will always be in your present and could see yourself around you, but that's only light, like hearing a thunderbolt, it is already over but you percepite it last.

If other observer used something different from light to observe you, they could see the real you making the action and not having the illusion of timetraveling.
 
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Verx90

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That's not what an "observer" is. An observer is not someone looking at something using light. Ignore light, light is a red herring. It's about how mass behaves as it approaches C relative to a frame of reference.
A rocket leaving earth and returning at FTL by the phisic we use, would come back before it started. This is why FTL doesn't exist. If you base your argument on rules we removed to alow FTL there is no much to discuss is there..
 

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A rocket leaving earth and returning at FTL by the phisic we use, would come back before it started. This is why FTL doesn't exist. If you base your argument on rules we removed to alow FTL there is no much to discuss is there..
I refer you to the Twin Paradox in Special Relativity. At this point my instinct is to say that not even an FTL rocket doing this maneuver would timetravel - as that would imply that there exists a point in spacetime that it can reach where it can use the FTL capability to double back on its own worldline. I haven't done the math on this one, admittedly - if someone has, please point me to it, I'd be curious to take a look. (I can see some issues with doing actual math here - namely that pesky infinity cropping up as one approaches C. And without taking acceleration into account, the Twin Paradox is back. Meaning it is also back if you instantly change velocity without a smooth acceleration)

On a broader scale - what is the premise? That the speed of light is not, in fact, universally constant? Yes, that would throw relativity out the window, doubly so if nothing else replaces it. Physics for a non-relativistic universe haven't been written down, to my knowledge - not to the extent that would be necessary. But, luckily, this is not strictly-speaking necessary to allow FTL. Hyperlanes, for all intents and purposes of relativity, act like wormholes (in that they provide a shorter path between two points in spacetime than would be normally possible by linear movement). Wormholes, in turn, are in a really weird place. Because, once again, technically, wormholes can link across both space and time - so you don't even need to do fancy maneuvers to timetravel, you just need the right wormhole.

... Just .. can we please limit timetravel plots to that one weird anomaly with the ship? There are no good ways to do a timetravel plot right, in my opinion.

(Also, C, the speed of light in a vacuum, is not "the final velocity". It is a limit, but it is a limit that does hypothetically permit faster-than-light particles to exist, it's just that they can never slow down to C or slower - we just haven't found any. Nor is it a limit in the sense that nothing can go faster - spacetime expansion itself, being the weird thing that it is, actually can, from what we can tell)
 

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"relativity proposes that the definition of "right now" is also different, depending on which observer's"

It is literally at the start of the whole exercise.

One problem is that it is based on a theory that prove there is no FTL.

And that it is probably wrong, but the best one we have.



As another point, this whole try is based on the fact that the tachyon can't be altered by nothing, but reality is quite clear about the fact that everything is altered by gravity, time. So I don't see it as reliable but just grow my argument against timetraveling in FTL.
It's based on the following premises
  • There is no preferred frame of reference
  • Speed of light is constant for all frames of referrence
The above has been tested and is true, it also leads to the outcome that observers moving at different velocities will see each other move through time at different speeds. Someone moving at 50% of the speed of light is also moving about 16% slower through time for another observer. This is not just an apparent effect but a real phenomena, GPS satelites have to account for this effect by running slower clocks, if they didn't they would drift out of phase, and very quickly too. (they'd calculate wrong by a couple of miles a day)

Meanwhile if you're moving at 2 times the speed of light your time factor turns out to be imaginary -57%. Complex numbers are used in physics so it's not valid to say that it's just a mathematical error, however what it means in this context is unclear. What is clear is the negative sign, an observer would see the FTL traveler moving backwards at half speed, and again this isn't just an apparent effect, it would be real. The first video I posted shows how. (you have to make a round trip to end up in your own past)

The theory is not based on the theory that there is no FTL, that's just an unfortunate consequence.
 
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It's based on the following premises
  • There is no preferred frame of reference
  • Speed of light is constant for all frames of referrence
The above has been tested and is true, it also leads to the outcome that observers moving at different velocities will see each other move through time at different speeds.
And again, to head off an argument, "see" in this context means "observe", not "interact with light by it hitting their eyeballs".

That they will probably observe it via light hitting their eyeballs is irrelevant.
 
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The actual in-universe explanation:

FTL is not actually FTL.

Starships equipped with hyper drives enter a "subspace" beneath the main universe. Within subspace, there are pathways between star systems, i.e., hyperlanes, that can be safely traveled through, and since subspace is smaller than the main universe, starships arrive sooner than if they'd traveled conventionally.

When an empire discovers a new system in the hyperlane network, such as the precursor homeworlds, what they're really doing is discovering a pathway they didn't know about before. Meanwhile starships using the Emergency FTL function and science ships using Experimental Subspace Navigation are taking uncharted routes to their destination.
 
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And again, to head off an argument, "see" in this context means "observe", not "interact with light by it hitting their eyeballs".

That they will probably observe it via light hitting their eyeballs is irrelevant.
Yes I know :)
 
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It's based on the following premises
  • There is no preferred frame of reference
  • Speed of light is constant for all frames of referrence
The above has been tested and is true, it also leads to the outcome that observers moving at different velocities will see each other move through time at different speeds. Someone moving at 50% of the speed of light is also moving about 16% slower through time for another observer. This is not just an apparent effect but a real phenomena, GPS satelites have to account for this effect by running slower clocks, if they didn't they would drift out of phase, and very quickly too. (they'd calculate wrong by a couple of miles a day)

Meanwhile if you're moving at 2 times the speed of light your time factor turns out to be imaginary -57%. Complex numbers are used in physics so it's not valid to say that it's just a mathematical error, however what it means in this context is unclear. What is clear is the negative sign, an observer would see the FTL traveler moving backwards at half speed, and again this isn't just an apparent effect, it would be real. The first video I posted shows how. (you have to make a round trip to end up in your own past)

The theory is not based on the theory that there is no FTL, that's just an unfortunate consequence.
I'm genuenly curious at this point, what do you think the "observer" use to determine how fast or slow the target is going thought time?
If the answer is ANY system that take data by using light, then my argument remain, light can't be used to observe FTL, because it can't go faster than light and would show timetravel as conseguente to anyone that is not the subject.


Because, really, the whole mine argument is about the fact that observer SEE something that is simply the result of light games, while the subject itself is the only reliable point of wiev, and it never have a time travel effect , THIS in an hipotetical world where FTL exist ofc.

Edit:don't look at the time, iam on pause at night turn.
 

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Being as it facilitates FTL telecommunications and transportation, how does it avoid breaking causality in a galaxy thousands of light-years across?

e.g. Sol and Alpha Centuri are approximately 4 light years apart, which means a UNE colony ship on Alpha Centauri III had landed sometime before the order to build said colony ship was issued to Sol Starbase shipyard (from the viewpoint of the Alpha Centauri system). Without an absolute frame of reference, how do objects in different star systems know when "now" is and not accidentally go back in time?
all of these "but Stellaris breaks suspension of disbelief" complaints, including the one about the relics being unrealistic, just show everyone you haven't discovered the secrets of the Vultaum yet ;)
 
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I'm genuenly curious at this point, what do you think the "observer" use to determine how fast or slow the target is going thought time?
If the answer is ANY system that take data by using light, then my argument remain, light can't be used to observe FTL, because it can't go faster than light and would show timetravel as conseguente to anyone that is not the subject.


Because, really, the whole mine argument is about the fact that observer SEE something that is simply the result of light games, while the subject itself is the only reliable point of wiev, and it never have a time travel effect , THIS in an hipotetical world where FTL exist ofc.

Edit:don't look at the time, iam on pause at night turn.
Light is the force carrier for electromagnetism so to "see" something is to be causally connected to it. You don't need eyeballs to "see" something as an observer, you just need to be a thing that exists. If this is a convoluted way of saying that FTL objects do not exist and therefore can not be observed then I'm 100% with you ;)
 
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