And over a month that 0.7 difference becomes 21 ICs wasted. And when you are locking the slider usually jumps to another value so the difference is even greater than 0.7!
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And over a month that 0.7 difference becomes 21 ICs wasted. And when you are locking the slider usually jumps to another value so the difference is even greater than 0.7!
Originally posted by Sonny
And over a month that 0.7 difference becomes 21 ICs wasted. And when you are locking the slider usually jumps to another value so the difference is even greater than 0.7!
Hmmm, and it's certainly not like there's such inefficiency and waste in real government planning, budgeting, appropriation and procurement!
Hey, I'm sympathetic -- but only to a point. The slider thing is annoying at times. But that's about it. I've found that by spending just a second more and having a light hand on the mouse, it's not really difficult to get the slider where you want it.
Oh, I'll be glad when and if it's fixed in 1.03, but on my list of HOI wishes, it's so far down the page as to be off of it. It all comes down to individuals, really. We each have our own pet peeves.
How? I am slider-challenged and bow to the inevitable waste of resources as being the better alternative than me ripping my mouse cord out and throwing it through the screen.
How exactly does it take a couple of seconds to lower consumer goods, and add half of the difference to both production and research?
My routine for such a mammoth task:
1) lower the consumer goods
2) lock the slider
3) fiddle with the slider to get it close to what it was before attempting to lock it sent it back 100 points.
4) lock the slider
5) pause the game as the slider has just jumped another 40-50 ics off where it was
6) Get the consumer goods slider back to where it should be
7) Lock the slider
8) repeat steps 6 and 7 for as many times as it takes to hit the magic pixel which does not move the slider as it locks.
9) Repeat steps 1-8 for supplies, production and research
10) Do the whole thing again a day later if you are USA/Russia and your WE reduces consumer goods by 1-2 ICS
Isn't the mouse a great time saver over typing in the figures on the keyboard
Originally posted by Dinsdale
Isn't the mouse a great time saver over typing in the figures on the keyboard
Yes, I never understood why you couldn't do that in EU2 either.
Steve.
Did I ever say it was Working as Designed? I changed that resolution in the bug list quite a while back to FIXED
I changed that resolution in the bug list quite a while back to FIXED 
Originally posted by Isebrand
I agree that the sliders are a bad user interface.
But I don't get the point of where the problem is. So you can't lock them at 0? Who cares, if it is 0 or 0.7.
Same with consumer production - cannot hit exactly 100%? Bah just give 'em a bit more or less, unless dissens is effected it doesn't matter.
You could call this loss of IC "friction in administration".
Thing is you can and should be able to hit/lock exactly 100% or 0. It's a game-feature. And this game-feature isn't working well.
The 1.02 patch added -/+ buttons to manage the sliders with precision. But when a slider is at just the right position, and you lock it, it often ends up 5-10 ICs away from this position. This is annoying and I hope it will be corrected in 1.03.
I was intrigued by this statement, and it left me with a question: how exactly is "fan's defense" of Paradox a problem? What are tare the negative consequences of this support that worry you?
Is your concern that such support blinds people to the game's faults? If so, from my perspective I see that many of the people who "defend" Paradox also post frequently on the subject of the game's weaknesses and failings. They make contributions to the tweaks/patch file, and constantly suggest how things might be made better. Just because they defend Paradox against some forms of criticism doesn't mean they're blind to the game's problems or dissapointed at it's beta-state release.
Is the concern or problem that this defense might encourage or allow Paradox to produce and market flawed products? If so, well, first I don't actually recall seeing anyone who has said something to the effect of: "The game is perfect, Paradox is above all responsibility to its consumers, and we should take anything Paradox gives us, pay the price they want, and be glad." Secondly, I don't see Paradox saying "Oh, well, we were going to patch that, but since so many people love us and are our willing thralls, we'll just drop it and get on to other things." In fact, Paradox goes far beyond many software companies in their support. That's not something to be taken lightly or overlooked. You must remember that they have no legal obligation to provide the post-purchase support that they do.
In the cold law of the marketplace, after you've paid your clams and taken the game, Paradox doesn't have any legal responsibility to do anything else for you. Caveat emptor. The fact that they do what they do in support is not only good business sense, but I believe it is also representative of some personal commitment and concern for their product and customers that is commendable, and should be noted and praised. Such behavior needs to be encouraged, if for no other reason than it is ultimately beneficial to the gaming community. Saying this and supporting Paradox for their post-sale support, however, in no way glosses over or negates the flaws in their product, or releases them from the reasonable gamer expectation that when we lay down $49 for a game, we should receive a quality product.
In addition, looking at the broader industry context, I don't really see how Paradox, in releasing HOI before it was "ready," is acting any differently than any other software company. Nearly every game I have ever bought, from anyone, in its first release was bugged and flawed and went through a six month to a year process of patching. It's the norm in the industry.
Sure, we'd like to get a perfect original release, but given the state of the industry that's just not going to happen. Some companies release more refined products than others, some are better at product support than others, and some companies provide better post-purchase value. But, in the end, all software providers are subject to a host of forces beyond their control. Publishers contract for a game and they want it when they want it, finished or not. *Especially* at Christmas. What's Paradox to do, say "no" to the people who produce and market their game? That's the quick route to bankruptcy. In the end, I don't see how this broader industrial reality is going to change, no matter what anyone posts on a forum. Short of people stopping their purchase of games altogether -- a boycott -- the market dynamics will remain. And I'm not holding my breath for a boycott, and I'm certainly not going to stop buying computer games in hopes that this will convince the industry to change its ways.
Further, keep in mind that games like HOI are a definite minor niche in a vast industry. Companies could stop producing wargames/strategy games, funnel the resources into other products and never miss a buck. In fact, I'm sure Paradox could probably make *more* money by embracing more popular genres. You dislike it when people defend Paradox from the rationale that they "are the only people who make such games," but I ask, isn't this a valid argument? If not them, who else? I'm reminded of one of my father's favorite sayings when giving advice on decision making: "do you want to cut off your nose to spite your face?" Or, similarly, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."
I want Paradox to continue producing strategy games. I am disappointed in the quality of the release version of HOI. I had higher expectations. I wish they had waited a month or so. I also understand that they really didn't have a choice in the matter. I want to support and encourage Paradox in their work, let them know both that I appreciate what they do and that I believe that they can continue to improve in what they do. I want to encourage them to continue their tradition of excellent community and game support. In the end, not only does it seem "right" to me in that this is how I would like to be treated in their position (The Old Golden Rule -- Do to others as you would have them do to you), but also it seems more likely to ultimately benefit me and the gaming community as well. Do you catch more flies with sugar or vineagar? Is my end goal simply to vent my disatisfaction, or encourage positive change?
In the end, I think it all comes down not to Paradox, not to the flaws in the game and not to the realities of the industry. In the end, it comes down to people, and the differences between them and the way they look at others and the world.
You're angry and upset over the state of a product you paid good money for. Your expectations were not met. You feel that an injustice has been done. You want something to be done; you want better quality and responsibility. I understand. I agree. The difference, if any? Where we go from there.
You're not "wrong" to feel what you feel or state your opinion. But, neither are the people who "support" Paradox. It's human nature, different human ways of dealing with probelms. I think the core question after that is: which mode of response is ultimately more productive? Which will affect the most positive change, more quickly? Me, I chose the route of support, patience and understanding, encouragement combined with constructive criticism. I want Paradox to support me, and I want them to grow and prosper in what they do, since they *are* the only people offering these kinds of games right now, and these kinds of games (HOI, EU2) are what I am most interested in playing. I also want to be grateful for what they do that they don't have to, and let them know that their work -- even if it isn't perfect -- is appreciated. That translates, I guess, into a certain degree of "loyalty" or "commitment." As a human, that's what I want from people when I make mistakes. Which will I respond more to -- harsh criticism or constructive criticism combined with patience and support? What motivates me to work harder, do better -- fear and resentment, or appreciation and support?
Your mileage may vary.
But, I would conclude by saying this -- next time, before someone's statement of support sends you over the edge, try to look beyond it and see if the person is also, in the end, speaking the same language as you -- a gamer who is passionate about their hobby and wants the best from their limited dollar. They may jut be adopting a different strategy to get there . . . .
Just thinking here, when I joined the board abouta year ago (I had just bought EUI) EUII was about to be realesed. The same kind of thing happened, people complained about the game notbeing ready, too buggy,crashing all the time etc.. However, I went as far as to pay extra for an American import. Paradox made the kind of games that I always wanted, and yes they weren't perfect and yes the CTD's pissed me off, but I kept the faith because I wanted more games like that. The same thing has happened when HoI came out, exactly the same thing. I guess the moral is clear you will never please all of the people all of the time.
egross,
Great post, however, there are people on the board who defend far too many problems with the game, claiming them to be "features."
The same happened with EU/EU2 and while great games, EU2 still has outstanding bugs in it, and a host of problems which are now transferred to HOI.
I hope that the very vocal "it's great/nothing wrong with that/it's historic/you're playing it wrong" group do not have an influence in leaving this game unfinished. One of the reasons it's worth posting on this board is because the developers and management at Paradox actually read and take notice.
99% of the posters on this board seem open minded and have an interest in this game beyond the usual software purchase. The minority of fanatics, both the "this game sucks" type and those who dress in Paradox cheerleading outfits are nothing but distractions and prevent constructive discussion.
For some reason, Paradox engenders a unique loyalty to it's products. Despite the problems with HOI, and knowing that Crusader Kings might suffer the same plethora of release bugs, I will probably go out and buy that game immediately too. Perhaps it's a subliminal plant from the original EU1 loading screen!
On a related note
I think we all have a tendancy to focus on perceived problems, important to us. After all, there aren't many "The Land Combat System Is Well Modelled, Congratulations" type posts, so on the whole the board must appear very critical. To guests, wanderers, or people who might not play the game because so many issues are out in the open; the reverse is true, those who often complain the loudest are the ones who have done the most work at looking into the game's innards.
Great post, however, there are people on the board who defend far too many problems with the game, claiming them to be "features."
The same happened with EU/EU2 and while great games, EU2 still has outstanding bugs in it, and a host of problems which are now transferred to HOI.
I hope that the very vocal "it's great/nothing wrong with that/it's historic/you're playing it wrong" group do not have an influence in leaving this game unfinished. One of the reasons it's worth posting on this board is because the developers and management at Paradox actually read and take notice.
99% of the posters on this board seem open minded and have an interest in this game beyond the usual software purchase. The minority of fanatics, both the "this game sucks" type and those who dress in Paradox cheerleading outfits are nothing but distractions and prevent constructive discussion.
For some reason, Paradox engenders a unique loyalty to it's products. Despite the problems with HOI, and knowing that Crusader Kings might suffer the same plethora of release bugs, I will probably go out and buy that game immediately too. Perhaps it's a subliminal plant from the original EU1 loading screen!
On a related note
I think we all have a tendancy to focus on perceived problems, important to us. After all, there aren't many "The Land Combat System Is Well Modelled, Congratulations" type posts, so on the whole the board must appear very critical. To guests, wanderers, or people who might not play the game because so many issues are out in the open; the reverse is true, those who often complain the loudest are the ones who have done the most work at looking into the game's innards.
Yes, locking the sliders is one of the single most frustrating interface issues I've seen in all my years of gaming. Please have this fixed by 1.03 - it should be so easy to put an icon in the menu for each slider that locks it down. If only the other 200 things wrong with the game were so easy to fix.
Yes, have to be careful there. One problem is that it's difficult knowing sometimes whether it is a bug or feature. And, if it's a feature, whether it's faulty in concept (like the entire whacked naval combat system.)
Of course, if the manual were actually more detailed and bore a greater resemblence to the game, it might be easier to identify bug from feature. But, that's another 16 threads . . . .
I dont know if everybody knows this, but there is an easy way to lock the sliders.
Simply drag the slider to the desired point, and without releasing the mouse button until double click on top of the slider knob. It takes a little bit to get adjusted to the action, but after a while it will be very "natural"
Simply drag the slider to the desired point, and without releasing the mouse button until double click on top of the slider knob. It takes a little bit to get adjusted to the action, but after a while it will be very "natural"
I can only tell (and told before), that the Paradox crew found a - imho - very good, user friendly solution for the "slider problem". it will be in 1.03, and my guess is, 90 %+ will be satisfied
My paws can't get within 10IC doing this.
Imagine if your browser scroll bar (over there------------------------>
Behaved in the same way, and you had no page down button. Would you settle for it?
oh come on... it is not that bad. honestly.
exaggerating doens`t make it better/worse.
No, really, it is.
Exaggerating? I don't think so. How many of you can use the sliders (not + - buttons) and immediately get within 10 IC of what you want, ie moving from 120 to 118 without dropping to 90 and moving back up?
If you can, then you are obviously better than me, good job, I'm sure that skill will come in useful. For us mortals though, is it possible to get an interface?
Again, try using a word processor/web browser/code editor with similar slider problems. It would be unacceptable.
The "mustn't grumble" attitude does not cut it, the sliders are a nightmare.
You can lock it in place by dragging the pointer and double clicking, but dragging the pointer does not give you any fine control, and the slider must jump a certain percentage of your IC with any movement. If you only have a few ICs its not a problem moving it a tenth of a point, but if you have several hundred ICs it might jump several with each movement. You have finer control with the plus and minus buttons, but I have found that if you try to lock the slider where you set it with those buttons it will jump to where it would have gone using the slider.
I have given up trying to lock them and now go back and forth with the plus and minus buttons until I get all four about where I want them. After five or ten minutes. Once I gave up hope of doing any better it was not quite so frustrating.
Hopefully the "very good, user friendly solution" will solve the problem.
I have given up trying to lock them and now go back and forth with the plus and minus buttons until I get all four about where I want them. After five or ten minutes. Once I gave up hope of doing any better it was not quite so frustrating.
Hopefully the "very good, user friendly solution" will solve the problem.
All I can say is you must have a much lighter hand on your mouse then I do
But seriously, the slider interface has been REALLY frustrating. It is a real let down after spending a lot of time and effort to plan for the most efficient use of resources and then have the game not be able to respond to the commands necessary to implement those plans (AKA the sliders not locking where you want them to)Granted there are a lot of other more substantive changes that can be made that will improve the game but and its a big but - if the UI is too frustrating to use you will never get to the good substantive details of the game because you will just quit playing it in frustration.
Usually the only slider that has this accuracy problem is the supply slider. It seems that the slider in this case moves in "ticks". This causes the slider to have an accuracy of 10 ICs when your total is high. Once that you accept this, it is not such a big issue, and you take it as one of the "features" of the game. As I said before locking the slider in place is not that hard, once you know the right technique. The -/+ adjuster is an add on to patch 1.02, so it does not work very well with the sliders/locking.
Hopefully 1.03 has fixes the inconsistencies.
Hopefully 1.03 has fixes the inconsistencies.
Isn't that the whole point of having a good UI. People should be able to concentrate on playing the game not on their particular technique for making the sliders work properly. It is a defect in the game. It should be fixed not defended.
Yes there are ways of fiddling with the sliders to make them come close to what you want but the point is it is way too clumsy.
Remember this was already "fixed" once in the last patch. In other words whoever did the programming for this part of the patch actually turned their mind to making it better. The problem is they didnt really solve the problem.
As said above by another poster, I hope this wasn't designed as "one of the features of the game".